Landships II

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Saxonian Tank Detachment

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

KEA 9 Zwickau. "Tank" training with KEA 1 in Berlin.
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Hptm v. R�mer
OLt Brendel
Lt Hoffmann
Lt Paul
Lt Sch�ne
Lt Wilm

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Hi mad zeppelin!

Thanks a lot for the information!

KEA = Kraftfahr-Ersatz-Abteilung?
So, they had a training, but neither they got tanks nor did they saw action?
May I ask you what is your source? Is there any other information? Is there a general source I can use for futher similar questions?

Thanks a lot again!

Regards
Chris

FAR48 · Corporal

Greetings all -

I have been meaning to join in on here for a while, being greatly impressed with the research undertaken.

Anyway... my major interest is the Royal Saxon Army (especially the artillery), so I was most excited to see this piece of information about a projected Saxon tank unit. I have looked into this in conjunction with a friend in Dresden (from his own impressive collection of reference material, we haven't tried the Saxon archives yet), but we have not been able to find out anything at all about it. It is logical to us that the Saxon Kraftfahr establishment was in Zwickau, with its established automotive industry. My Great-Grandfather, a veteran of (4. K.S.) Feldartillerie-Regiment 48, got his first job after the war at the 'Autopark Zwickau' (at the time it was normal for vehicle owners in urban areas to keep their cars at a park like this).

I would be most interested to know where this information came from, and whether there is any indication as to which abortive tank unit expansion scheme this related to - additional A7V units (before the A7V was cancelled) or light tank units for 1919?

I am especially interested to get any more information on the background and careers of the officers chosen for this projected unit, but I have had no luck with the Ranglisten. My Saxon friend suggests that they were mostly or all Reserve officers.

Andi L.

PS Currently researching the Brancourt / Montbrehain fighting in October 1918 (which involved many British and US tanks, and also my GGF's regiment) on the GW Forum here

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

The source is the Saxonian Army Archive. There were only some preliminary considerations to create this unit.
Hptm v. R�mer (K.S.JgBtl 14), Lt.d.R. Paul and Lt.d.R. Hoffmann were already deployed, while Brendel, Sch�ne and Wilms were identified to fill the complment of a projected Saxonian Detachment.
Paul served and saw combat with Abt. 15; Hoffmann with Abt. 16. Von R�mer I've not yet been able to link to a specific unit.

FAR48 · Corporal

Thankyou, this is enormously interesting! I have now found Hptm. von R�mer with JB 13 in the Ranglisten (14 was not Saxon) - I do not know how we missed him before. In fact, I have found two possible candidates - one was a Leutnant in 1914 and a Hauptmann in the Reichsheer. The other was already a Hauptmann in 1914 and a Major in the Reichsheer.

I will pass this information on to my colleague, who has the published unit history for JB 13, and let you know what he discovers (for starters, when / if each von R�mer left the Btn., and when Lt. von R�mer was promoted). Sadly to his knowledge there are no printed unit histories for the Saxon Kraftfahr formations.

Given the information so far, my supposition is that the five Leutnants were intended to be the fighting tank commanders of a five-machine heavy tank unit, and the Hauptmann would have been primarily concerned with the administration of the unit (and would not have been in a tank in action himself). It will be interesting to see whether it was the elder or the younger von R�mer who was chosen for this role.

It is extremely interesting to hear that two Saxon officers served as tank commanders in 'Prussian' tank units. Is it known whether there any Saxon NCOs or enlisted men, perhaps in the same units?

I presume you mean the military section of the Hauptstaatsarchiv Dresden? When I was in Dresden with my German grandmother last year we tried to visit the archive in Archivstrasse, Dresden-Neutstadt, but found to our great disappointment that it was closed to the public for cleaning. I have not found anyone in the British WW1 research community who has used it either, so it is quite mysterious to me. I am determined to visit the place in future and look for clues to my Great-Grandfather's service and decorations (EK1, Bronze Friedrich-August Medal) in whatever paperwork survives for his regiment and its two parent divisions.

Kind regards

Andi L.

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

FAR48: it was common use - esepcially before 1914 - that officers (but no NCOs!) from Non-Prussian units also sometimes served some time in Prussian units and vice versa. Expect Bavarian officers; also I have never heard that Prussian officers served in Bavaria.

Also bear in mind that they searched in 1917/1918 officers for a new wepaon in an Army that already was 100% controlled and commaned by Prussia.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Thanks for the correction of the unit number, 14 must have slipped into my table (MS Excel sometimes develops initiative of its own).
Given the long time an officer had to wait for promotion, our guy should be the captain (promoted in 1913 if I read it correctly). The lieutenant (promoted in 1907) could be hardly more than a first lieutenant (Oberleutnant) in 1918.

The captain would be expected to lead a detachment, but all detachments are already "taken".

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

@mad zeppelin:

Coming back on the "long time to wait for promotion". It was war time and some officers became rather quick promotion. And don't you forget about field promotions and bravery promotions. After the war they nearly got no promotions, as too much officers were available. That means: Usually after the war they kept their last rank for a very long time.

I have an officers convolut in my collection. He became very quick his promotions and became Captain in 1917. And then he was Captain until 1934 ! During to the built up of the Wehrmacht all officers again became quick promotions due to the lack of officers now.

Coming back to our dicussed case: I believe the second officer (Captain in 1913 and Major in 1918) is not "our" v. R�mer, because in the Reichswehr he was in the "Stab" (Staff ?). Usually he then had to be in the "Stab" already before 1918 and that means that he saw no action (anymore).

FAR48 · Corporal

elbavaro wrote:
FAR48: it was common use - esepcially before 1914 - that officers (but no NCOs!) from Non-Prussian units also sometimes served some time in Prussian units and vice versa. Expect Bavarian officers; also I have never heard that Prussian officers served in Bavaria.

When my Great-Grandfather's Division (241) served in Galicia in 1917, there were even several Austro-Hungarian officers who served for months at a time with them on secondment (in exchange for Saxon officers serving with A-H units). No Turks however (although they were unloaded from the railhead in the Turkish sector when they were first transferred to the S�darmee).

Apart from temporary secondments, however, the officers in the parts of the Division for which I have detailed information (FAR 48, IR 472, IR 473, IR 474, MWK 441, 2 / HR 18) seem to have been entirely Saxon - increasingly (as 241 Div. was rebuilt repeatedly in 1918) from the Saxon Landwehr, and spare officers from Saxon cavalry regiments in the infantry. As for the men, the birthplaces in the Verlustlisten are pretty homogenously Saxon, and the sources of major drafts from other units (when reinforcing with younger and fitter personnel before transferring back to the West for 1918, and when rebuilding later on) also always Saxon.

It seems that the Kgl. S�chs. Kriegsministerium were very protective of their control over their personnel, always seeking to consolidate smaller Saxon elements into entirely Saxon regiments and entirely Saxon divisions (entirely Saxon corps only lasted until 1916, but the divisions still show a tendency to group together in their subsequent history - for example, three of the six German divisions in the S�darmee in July 1917 were Saxon; in all of 241. Divisions biggest battles - July 1917, July 1918 and October 1918 - they fought directly alongside another Saxon division). It should be noted that the pride of the Saxon War Ministry and General Staff had been greatly damaged when von Hausen was replaced at the head of 3. Armee by a Prussian, leaving no Saxon in command of any formation larger than a Corps.

I would not be surprised to find that there was already an eventual hope in the K.S. Kriegsministerium of raising a separate Saxon formation when the transfer of these officers to Abt. 15 and 16 was agreed. Once they had gained sufficient experience in the field with the 'Prussian' Abteilungen, they could be brought back under Saxon control as the cadre for a Saxon Tank Abteilung.

Also bear in mind that they searched in 1917/1918 officers for a new wepaon in an Army that already was 100% controlled and commaned by Prussia.

I am very curious about the recuitment of German tank troops in general. Although there is a lot of information readily available about the machines used by the young 'Tankwaffe' and their combat history, none of the sources have much to say about where the personnel came from and how and where they were recruited. I am currently struggling through Volckheim with my poor German, but have not find any answers in that book yet.

I believe (based on that British interrogation report of a German tankman which is quoted in various books, and supported by photos of the crews) that the drivers and mechanics were from the Kraftfahrtruppen, primarily or entirely the Garde-Kraftfahrtruppen based in Berlin-Lankwitz. The 57mm gun crews were from the Feldartillerie (unit or units unknown) and the Machine-Gunners from the Infanterie (unit or units unknown). The officers are quite mysterious - presumably (given the small, secretive and experimental nature of the tank units) as per the British procedure, suitable individuals were identified and asked privately if they wanted to volunteer for something dangerous. Please see attached the meagre amount of background information I have found on these gentlemen.

What is really needed is some detailed comparative study of Milit�rpasse for German tank crews. Presumably however those which survive will all be hidden away in the wardrobes of wealthy collectors....:(

-- Edited by FAR48 on Sunday 3rd of May 2009 10:42:34 PM

-- Edited by FAR48 on Monday 4th of May 2009 07:56:58 PM

FAR48 · Corporal

Well, Gentlemen -

My friend in Dresden has consulted his references and found quite a lot of information on the various possible von R�mers. As well as the two gentlemen from JB 13, he mentioned some other notable members of what was quite likely the same family. We both hope that there may be enough information here for Mr. Zeppelin to identify the correct one.

Rank titles are those in 1914:

1. Hptm. MARTIN von R�mer (JB 13)
The most likely candidate. According to the published history of JB 13, he commanded various Companies within JB 13. He was (acting, presumably) Battalion Commander from 10th August to 30th September 1916 and then commanded the 1. MG Komp. until 8th November. After this he was "transferred to the divisional staff". I will have to clarify which division my friend means - I am not sure where JB 13 were at that point. According to Cron, J�ger Regiment 7 was formed in August 1916 from JB 13, RJB 25 and RJB 26 (all Saxon). According to the Rangliste, he was likewise a divisional staff officer as a Major in the Reichsheer. The Ehrenbuch des S�chs. St.-Heinrichsorden states that he belonged to JB 12, but there is no other evidence for any officers of this name whatsoever with that battalion, so we have both assumed that this is an error.

2. Lt. ERWIN von R�mer (JB 13)
According to the published history of JB 13, he was a company officer (not commander) in the battalion and was wounded on 24th October 1914. The published casualty lists of the Saxon Army (which include wounds and are thus exceptionally useful - unfortunately my friend does not have a complete set of these lists for the whole war) list him as an Oberleutnant, probably by mistake, and state that he was only lightly wounded in the right hand. Nevertheless he is never listed with the unit after this, nor (so far as my friend can establish - note that there was apparently no published history ever produced for RJB 12) with any other Saxon J�ger-Btn. nor with the Saxon Sch�tzen-Regt. 108. Thus his further career is a mystery (apart from surviving to become a Hauptmann in the Reichsheer).

3. Hptm. HORST von R�mer (Inf. Brig. 48, later 116)
At the beginning of 1915 he is known to have been adjutant to Generalmajor Richard Kaden, commanding Infanterie-Brigade Nr. 48 (24 Inf. Div. - the brigade was renumbered '116' in March 1915, when it was transferred to the new 58 Inf. Div.). In peacetime this von R�mer had served with IR 139, which was part of the brigade under its original number (IR 139 however remained with 24 Inf. Div. throughout the war). GM Kaden retired after Verdun in 1916 - what happened to von R�mer subsequently is unknown.

4. Hptm. JOHANNES von R�mer (IR 105)
Company commander in IR 105 (30 Inf. Div. - the only regular Saxon infantry regiment serving outside the Saxon Army (i.e. 3. Armee) at the outbreak of war). He was severely wounded in the Vosges in 1914 (shot through the lung) and received the St.-Heinrichsorden. In October 1917 he is listed again with the regiment as Hptm. and commander of 8. Komp. / IR 105. In the regimental listing of officers for May 1918 he has disappeared again. He is also not mentioned at all between October 1917 and this date, which is quite surprising as this is one of the more detailed histories, with many officers mentioned by name. Thus there is no way of knowing when he left.

Erwin and Horst both came from Bad Elster near Oelsnitz in the Vogtland. Martin and Johannes came from the nearby small town of Wohlhausen. Thus it seems very likely that they were all related.

My friend also found a Rittmeister HANS-RUDOLF von R�mer, a squadron commander with UR 21 - however he fell in battle on the Duna in 1917.

Hopefully this is useful. I am fairly sure that Martin is our man (based on my belief that the position of the commander in a Tank-Abteilung was largely a 'staff' role).

Kind regards

Andi L.

-- Edited by FAR48 on Thursday 7th of May 2009 12:36:31 AM

K-Flak · Lieutenant

Maybe senseless to answer to a 3-year old thread but Lt. ERWIN von R�mer (JB 13) became an aviator (observer) in WWI and later a Luftwaffe-General.�

Date: Dec 14, 2013

Horst von R�mer (* 28.08.1882) ended WWI as Hauptmann. In 1939 he was reactivated for WWII. He died in the Soviet NKVD special camp No. 1 M�hlberg/Elbe on 20. December 1946. Names of the dead: http://www.lager-muehlberg.de//images/reife_rosemeier.jpg