Landships II

James H · Legend

Belgian Armoured Train?

Centurion · Legend

Don't know about the particular one in your photo but the Belgians did use some form of armoured train so it makes sense

Centurion · Legend

I've checked this out further. The wagon shown fits the description of a wagon on one of three armoured trains operating in Southern Belgium during September and October 1914. The gun protruding from the end is a British naval� 6 pounder. Just as on the tanks later. There were also ports for two machine guns as well as rifle slots. The trains were basically made up of one of these wagons at each end with an armoured loco in the middle. Open trucks mounting a British 4.7 in naval gun were also used. Crews were combined British and Belgian. I think the British members were naval as the whole idea had the active support of Churchill. The trains were made up in Belgian Raiway Workshops just south of Antwerp. They were usually supported by a battalion of Belgian Cycle troops. They appear to have been quite effective , especially a train commanded by a Lt Michel. The trains eventually pulled back to France, their subsequent�fate is unknown (to me at least). The Belgians also had two other armoured trains�that were in existance before Sept 1914 but I have no real info on these.

Centurion · Legend

Aha I've discovered the fate of those three armoured trains. Train no 1� was trapped by 'friendly demolition' someone blowing a railway bridge over which it was supposed to be retreating. The crew disabled the� 6 pounders and buried the ammunition, dismounted the machine guns and retrated on foot joining up with trains nos 2 and 3. These were stationed at Dunkirk for a time before being taken out of service and stored at Calais. The armour was tripped off and used for othr things. Later the loco of one of them was re armoured and served with a British 9.2 in railway gun battery.

Thats all folks

Roger Todd · Legend

Here's a Flemish article on Belgian armoured trains in WW1:

http://www.wfa-belgie.be/artikels/trein.htm

If you use babelfish and choose the Dutch-English setting (there being none for Flemish) it translates the bulk of the text passably enough to understand.

Here's a passage probably about the carriage Centurion refers to (unedited for grammar, or frankly anything else), as apart from anything else it mentions a 57-mm (6-pdr) gun forwards:

On iniatief of Lt. Michel of the genie, Cie track, on 31 augusts 1914 with building "slightly" an armoured train in the workshop of the track ways in Antwerpen-Noord it was started. After 5 days and nights the first was.
Vooraan a long flat truck (35 barrels) was, vooraan and on both sides protected by scheepsplaten of 18 mm dik and 25 degrees incline and with a roof of 12 mm stole plates as a result of which put an observation turret.
Vooraan did a gun of 57 mm stand and? MG both sides. Thereby gleuven still 18 for firing with guns came. On this carriage layers also still spoorstaven and material to possibly repair a track line.
In the middle were themselves 16 the armoured lokomotief of the type of (later type of 32). were themselves a small truck with achteraan MG and with slots for guns.
The crew existed from Lt. Michel, two onderofficieren, 3 gun kidney, 2 corporals, 6 machine-guns, 40 soldiers, one stoker and two machines man. Except the onderofficieren and the gun kidney was the rest all volunteers.
Patrol lokomotief went always the armoured train in advance.

When it refers to 25-degree inclines to the sides, I presume it means 25-degrees off the�vertical, going by James H's photo.

Bart De Pauw on the World War 1 & 1920s section of the missing-lynx forum is looking for�drawings and plans of�the 4.7" naval guns used on some Anglo-Belgian armoured trains, so anyone interested may want to contact him ('Where to find drawings of British naval guns?'):

http://www.network54.com/Forum/282066/

Flaming 'eck, my post has just nicked James H's photo-attachment - sorry!

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 14:02, 2007-02-03

Centurion · Legend

Here is a photo of a 4.7 in gun pushed by one of the Belgian armoured locos (type 320)

Centurion · Legend

Accounts in English of some the actions of No 1 train and Lt Michel

�

7th Sept 1914 Near Thissel

�

�Reconnoitring on foot , the train commander, Lt Michel, found that a wood to the south was held by about 50 German troops, who were thereupon driven out by the armoured train crew, their withdrawal being hastened by five rounds of shrapnel shell from the 6 pounder. The bodies of three German soldiers were found later in the wood; the Belgians lost one man killed. At 1.30 p.m. the pursuit of the enemy was taken up by two of the cyclist companies; by this time the engine was running short of water and the train was withdrawn towards Boom, stopping on the way to picj up the men of one cyclist company.�

�

11th September 1914

��Lt Michel used a type 17 4 �4-0 express loco on which he had mounted a machine gun, to undertake a reconnaissance in preparation for an attempt to destroy the railway bridges across the Dendre t Alost and Denderleeuw. This was tried the following day with Armoured Trains nos. 1 and 2 both participating but they succeeded in only partially damaging the Alost bridge. On the 13th they made no mistake, although the armoured trains themselves were not used; Michel took and express loco and a vaqn loaded with 600 kg of explosives to Alost. , while Lt Deleval of No. 2 train went by road to Denderleeuw with an armoured car and three other vehicles and 200 kg of HE. All six girders of the Alost bridge and three out of four at Denderleeuw were brought down.�