Landships II

Ironsides · Legend

Looking for info on regular arab troops 1916-18

James H · Legend

This is the best I can do:

Regular troops, of which there were two brigades, were mostly Syrian or Iraqi and wore a mix of British khaki uniforms and native styles. The kafiya (which has several spellings and is known by different names in different parts of the Arab world - in Saudi, for example, it's called a ghutra) is simply a headcloth about 3' square. Its different patterns have certain significances, but the troops in question wore a khaki version held in place by an agal, the cord circle that sits on top of the head.

Later, many Syrians and Armenians deserted from the Ottoman Army to join the Arab revolt, and continued to wear their Turkish uniforms.

The best pic I can find is this:

Blimey. I know more than I realised. This explains about the headgear: http://www.desertstore.com/pages/mensclothing.html

-- Edited by James H at 23:42, 2007-04-14

Centurion · Legend

The web site to which you link� has a somewhat Saudi bias to it. There are in fact quite distinctive variations between the� attire as worn in different Gulf states so that, it is posible to tell a Kuwati from a Saudi from an Bahraini, from a Qatari etc etc. The differences between the upper and lower Gulf are the easiest (collars, no collars, cuffs, no cuffs etc) but there are also more subtle give aways in the use� (or not) of embroidery. The Saudis like to pretend that there is no real difference between them and the other Gulf states whilst the smaller states tend to play it up. I'm not a real expert but when I lived in Qatar�I did begin to learn how to tell the difference between the countries. As you get into Jordan and towards Egypt some of the terminology actually changes. There are also different ways of fold ing and wearing the headdress (for example it can be folded do it looks almost like a mini� 3 cornered hat). Brown dishdashis are often worn in winter and so on and so forth. Originaly the red chequered head dresses were intended to indicate genuine desert living tribes as opposed to effete town dwellers but this distinction has largely vanished. The rules also change a bit as one gets into Iraq. I once had the priviledge of getting to wear the costume belonging to a member of one of the old (pre Saddam) leading families. It was both very comfortable and hellishly impressive with a cloak, gold embroidery etc. The Saudis being somewhat puritanical frown on such adornment. The style of the curved daggers are also a give away as there are well documented variations. If you go to the souk in Huf huf (Eastern Saudi) you can buy locally made slings for one's�assault rifle of choice�with ones own tribal emblems� and so on and so forth. The degree to which any of this was translated into military uniform is not clear but i would imagine that individual units would adjust a standard uniform in subtle ways so as to retain their national and tribal identities.
Also beware many 'Arab' soldiers were no such thing. (the Armenians would give you very short shrift for calling them Arab). Many of the Tribal levies used by the British were Assyrians with a history going right back to the days when their empire dominated much of the Middle East in old testament times. They were not Arab and were also mainly Zoastrian in faith with some Christian tribes. As a result of this they were (and still are) persecuted by the Iranians and Turks as well as the Arab population of what is today Iraq. For a short time they managed to establish their own homeland. The Assyrian levies served with the British against the Turks and continued to serve (a little like the Ghurkas) right through WW2. They got dumped in the cacky by the Atlee administration in the late 1940s - not one of Britain's finest moments. They wore British style uniforms with British style ranks but are often mistakeny lumped in with Arab trrops (as were Kurdish units - i could go on but its late)

Centurion · Legend

Ironsides wrote:

Hi,�any information would be welcome on regular arab units in particular uniforms and 'Kaffia'(traditional head scarf)�colours and anything else...many thanks

cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:32, 2007-04-15

I think that you are conflating Arab and Bedouin. Bedouins are Arab but not all Arabs are Bedouin. Significant� numbers of regular Arab units served in the French army, these were from North Africa - Algeria being the main source - see attached WW1 coloured photo. I suspect that you are looking for�troops from the Middle East. The�Turks had a policy of deploying their regular Arabic troops well away from their homelands. Thus many of the Turkish Army units facing the Allies at Gallipoli were Syrian wearing standard Turkish uniforms. Despite James H's posting I can find no details of regular Syrian or Iraqi Arabic troops in Allied service. There were some Arab forces under Fisal opposing the post war French occupation of Syria and the Lebanon who wore a mixture of British and traditional clothing - I attach a photo together with one of Fisal (when he was cooperating with Zionist forces from Palestine!). Units in Messopotamia (Iraq) ,sometimes refered to as Arabic, wearing regular uniforms were in fact Assyrian Tribal levies (more photos attached) or Kurds attached to General Dunsterville (aka Stalky). Arabic forces operating mainly in what is today Western Saudi Arabia (as per Lawrence of Arabia) or in what is today Eastern Saudi, Kuwait and Western Iraq (coordinated by Col Leachman) were all irregular (sometimes highly so) - see photo of Leachman himself.
I have seen Indan Army Soldiers (lancers) attached to the Imperial Camel Corps in Palestine incorrecectly labeled as Arab troops. As far as I am aware the only Arab elements involved with the ICC were baggage train drivers and thise performing a similar role with the Camel Ambulance Train (see photos)

Ironsides · Legend

Hi not quite sure how to answer this one.. perhaps its best if you look at this link in particular the appendix listing the troops of The Arab Northern Army under the command of Amir Faysal b. Husayn.....

http://www.gwpda.org/bio/f/faysal.html

The Troops I'm interested in would be those listed as Regulars.....appox 2000 men...

cheers

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Osprey MAA 208 "Lawrence and the Arab Revolts" by David Nicolle gives the following info: "The Arab Revolt also needed a hard core of trained soldiers as an example to the irregulars. Only properly�disciplined troops could face the Ottomans in open battle, and these could only be recruited from Iraqi or Syrian ex-Ottoman soldiers now languishing in various POW camps. Fortunately many jumped at the chance of fighting for an Arab cause, despite the knowledge that if recaptured they would be executed as traitors. Late in the summer of 1916, the British sent 1,000 such men to the Hijaz, and even at the end of the war about 90 percent of the Arab Army regulars were ex-Ottoman POW's. Armed and uniformed from British stores, they were eventually formed into two brigades, although their total strength was actually closer to one brigade. While the infantry wore British uniforms, camel and mule-riding units found these unsuitable, reverting to traditional Arab costume from the waist down. This regular Arab Army was also distinguished by by its khaki kafya headcloths.�
�� "In overall divisional command was the same Ja'afar al Askari who had been captured while leading Sanussi troops in the Western Desert. His brigade commanders, Nuri al Sa'id Maulud Mukhlis were similarly experienced ex-Ottoman officers of Iraqi origin. Most of the Arab Army's officers were, in fact, Iraqis, as were half of the other ranks. Among the Syrians and Palestinians were many who, though dedicated to Arab independence, were far from convinced by the Sharyf Hussayn's claim to leadership. Most regulars had families living in Ottoman territory, often with relatives still fighting in the Ottoman ranks. Not surprisingly the Arab Army seldom wore badges of rank or anything else to help identication if killed or captured, and no unit officer was above the rank of captain. This led to a very democratic spirit but confused the British advisors. An Ottoman background probably accounted�for the presence of whiskey in the officers' mess,�while�common military training frequently enabled Arab officers to predict their enemy's next move."
�� The book covers more ground than the title suggests, discussing various uprisings across North Africa and the Middle East.�It contains a number of photos of Arab Army regulars and a colour plate - if�these would be helpful send me a e-mail.��

James H · Legend

Centurion's information is interesting and exhaustive, but I can't see that it contradicts my reply to Ironsides's original question. As I said, nowadays the�design and style do indicate nationality and so on - the late Yasser Arafat is said to have folded his into the shape of Palestine, but I think it took a trained eye to spot the resemblance - but the question is about the dress of 1916-18.�I didn't say the Armenians were Arabs, I said they joined the Arab revolt, which began in mid-1916.�That was with a view to profiting from the defeat and break-up of the Ottoman Empire.

Anyway, here is some more stuff to throw into the mix. In late 1916 the Arab army (Sherifian) was organised into 3 commands, Northern, Southern, and Eastern, each commanded by a son of the Sherif of Mecca, who had declared for the Allies.

The Northern included a regular brigade and 4 artillery batteries, the Southern one camel and two infantry battalions and 4 batteries, and the Eastern a camel battalion and a mountain battery. These units formed the nucleus of each command and large numbers of irregulars fough in addition.

The Northern command operated mainly against the Hejaz railway and eventually marched on Damascus; the Southern beseiged Medina and deployed as far south as Yemen; the Eastern�sought to restrict�pro-Turkish Arab forces in the Nejd, of which there were plenty. Not all the loyalties were dictated by altruism or pan-Arabism.

Those interesting people, the Druze, joined with the Norther command late in the War.

Interesting side-issue: the siege of Medina went on until early 1919. Anyone know why?

Centurion · Legend

Some of the Turkish garrisons did not surrender in 1918. This was not out of sheer determinination to keep on fighting but out of fear that they would be massacred. The Turkish government seems to have made little provision for bringing their troops home and some Turkish garrisons did not surrender until British or French troops could guarantee their safe passage in 1919. In Syria some Turkish garrisons joined the locals in fighting the French ( a confused period!)

I was merely trying to point out that one should not extrapolate from a modern clothing shop's site that had a particular bias.

Such regular troops as the Arab army had appear to have been part of the Northern Army but one has to use the word 'regular' a little cautiously rather as one would with regard to some of the partisan armies of WW2 and perhaps substitute military dress for uniform� the latter suggesting more consistency than seems to have applied. A Syrian history of the Arab armies states that the Northern army was not reorganised to incorporate these 'regular' forces until after Aqaba was taken. The force that took this port consisted of 500 mounted troops�who marched across the desert (to take the port on its relatively undefended land side) and were �joined by 1500 local Bedouin tribesmen once it became clear who was going to win. I attach a photo taken at Aqaba showing�some of the attackers from the Northern Army. The magnificent charge shown in the film never happened. There was rather a confused melee in which Lawrence managed to shoot his own camel!
A French military mission help organise the Northern Army and provided a number of its under officers - I attach a photo of these (although I don't think the gentleman with the magnificent white beard is French - see seperate photo). I also enclose a photo showing two French officers, the Minister of War for the Hedjaz (effectively Western province Saudi Arabia) and one of the senior Arab offices (he's the one in the white breeches). I also enclose three officers (with, I think a British officer in the background). I enclose what are two mounted troops wearing� dish dashi� with very tatty uniform jackets over the top (today western sports jackets are often worn in this way in the winter months). Finaly�I enclose a photo of elements of the Southern Army escorting the Sherif of Mecca.
Unfortunately editing the posting changes the sequence of the photos but I'm sure you can work it out

-- Edited by Centurion at 14:32, 2007-04-17

-- Edited by Centurion at 14:34, 2007-04-17