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Post Info TOPIC: Early German Tank proposals
Centurion


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Early German Tank proposals
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I found the following piece of text written by Capt Wegner (the High Command's liason officer on the A7V committee)

"The idea of an armoured and armed vehicle on caterpillar tracks to be used against the enemy was offered to the German War department by a German firm in December 1913. A Torpedo shapped body carried on two tracks was indicated in a rough sketch. Undoubtedly a tank could have been developed there- from under the direction of the army with the assistance of technical engineers....... However the military necessity was not recognised. The German army was built and organised for short heavy blows but not for a four year trench war.
In 1915 a German firm built a gun carrying vehicle with caterpillar tracks and demonstrated it before a military connission. The firm wanted so much for it and, as it had to be improved to be considered practical, the matter was dropped."

A torpedo shaped body does not sound like Burstyn's 'tank' and  I don't think that either of Goebel's designs  was demonstrated as early as 1915. Any one have any ideas as to their identity?

-- Edited by Centurion at 15:43, 2007-05-08

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Tim R


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 Centurion
    Were did you find this information??
All the Best
Tim R

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Centurion


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Captain  Wegner apparently made a long statement (to whom or for what I don't know) after the war. Snippets appear in various places but the longest section (from which I quoted) is in 'The fighting tanks' by Jones Rarery and Icks. Most of this is concerned with explaining why the German army did not mass produce its own tanks. (Possibly some one had asked something like "what the bleep bleep was the A7V committee actually doing?") Rarery Jones and Icks acknowledge that they got much of their German info from either Die Deutschen Kampfwagen im Weiltkreig or Der Kampfwagen in der Heutigen Kriegfuhrung (theres an umlaut missing) both written by a Lt Volckheim (wasn't there a Volckheim commanding one of the A7Vs?) and published in Berlin in 1923 and 1927 repectively so they might have picked it up from there.

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Tim R


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Thats very interesting Centurion...
I know that the Germans had various other Landship designs, but it seems not much information still exists on any of these, which is sad.  I have various accounts from different individuals describing armored tracked vehicles proposed to the General Staff, and it seems nothing was even given a second look, each being dismissed in turn, and disappearing from history.
I will go over some of my material hopefully this weekend, and see if I can locate any reference to what you have quoted from Capt. Wegner.


 All the Best
Tim R

-- Edited by Tim R at 22:48, 2007-05-08

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Centurion


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Interesting that the Germans had their own "Herr Mole" in 1913

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Tim R


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 Centurion
   I had a brief chance to look through one book last night; I also went back and re-read my information for the article on Goeble.
 Herr Goeble did produce a full working model of what he called the landkreuzer (Land Cruiser) in 1913, although it does have some what of a resemblance to a torpedo, I no for sure this is not what Capt. Wegner was describing, because this machine used walking legs.
However Goeble did design and produce a working model of his landpanzerkreuzer (armoured land cruiser), in 1915 and demonstrated it to the General staff in late 1915.
 Now this machine resembles a torpedo slightly, with a very low body, with a slightly pointed front and rear, and it  ran on a set of tracks..
 I am not convinced as of yet, that Capt Wegner was referring to any one of Goebles designs. But it is a possibility.
 I will keep digging
All the Best

Tim R



-- Edited by Tim R at 15:55, 2007-05-09

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Centurion


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Thanks Tim
My interpretation of Wegner's text was that the 1913 machine and the 1915 one was that these were not from the same source  so 1915 model doesn't have to be torpedo shaped.
I could be wrong (probably am) but I thought I'd read somewhere that Goeble's first machine demoed ran on a series of balls (like some chair castors) rather than caterpillers

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Tim R


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Centurion
    You were correct about the steel spheres on theLandpanzerkreuzer, I however was incorrect in stating that it had two tracks, it actually had one track originally, a track designed like a Pedrail track.
 

Here is a quote from my research, and article on Goeble that explains about the replacement (of the Pedrail Track) and addition of the steel spheres

 The German Crown Prince heard of Goebles rejection, and arranged for a demonstration to take place in June 1917. Goeble altered the vehicle, discarding the tracked unit and substituting steel spheres like giant ball bearings, the vehicle moved over the ground as if it was on castors. The vehicle was still considered impractical.
 So according to the information at hand, this could not very well the Landship in question.
 So unless it was the landkreuzer of 1913, (We of course no it could not have been this vehicle) we are back to square one.
 Great!!! More research..biggrinbiggrinwink
 All the Best
Tim R

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taz


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Does this help at all, translated from a Russian site.

Friedrich Goeble - the German engineer from Riga has created treading landkreuzer (land cruiser) in 1913 on the basis of standard German 4 ton military tractors. Goeble has constructed working model with six feet which has been shown the commercial commission of a military staff. The commission made standard demands: radius of a sharp turn of 4,50 metres and speed of 12 km/h. The sample of the commission was not pleasant. In 1915 Goeble has created new model landpanzerkreuzer (armour land cruiser). Goeble has constructed the low-power version which has shown the commissions in 1915. This model also has been rejected. Goeble has shown persistence, and has presented the following model very similar on British Pedrail track. The sample again was not pleasant to the commission which has decided that it in the empty spends money. It was in May 1917., when already started project A7V. The German crown prince has heard about a failure of project Goeble, the prince has arranged one more demonstration in June 1917. Goeble has presented the car project panzerkreuzer (armour cruiser) 35,5 metres in length, 5 metres in height, thickness of the reservation of 1,2 metres and weight of 550 tons. At this time the German command has already made decision to make A7V Sturmpanzerwagen, and projects Friedrich Goeble already were never carried out.

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taz


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Or this one?

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