Landships II

James H · Legend

Russians in Mesopotamia?

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James, I believe there was a large russian force operating in persia, its possible that there was some cooperation bettween this force and the allied troops in mesopotamia....�I seem to recall reading something of this nature a while ago including the interesting character you mention...

Cheers

James H · Legend

Yes. I've been looking into this.

There was a sizeable Russian invasion of the Ottoman Empire, but after an initial series of battles, with honours just about even, the Russian force began to fall apart. Then came the Revolution and it virtually disappeared.

The fighting spilled over into neutral Persia. There was certainly some cooperation between British and Russian troops. An American report talks of the two forces operating virtually as allies "for the first time in 100 years".

The Russians seem to have used some motor vehicles, and there's an account of a British soldier making a very long trip to fix a Russian radio transmitter.

I haven't found an overall account of operations in this theatre, just lots of small references. I'll try to pull them together into some sort of description.

I wonder if the Russian uniform was any different in this climate?

More to follow, as and when.

*How stupid am I? Initial reading reveals that a significant cause of casualties was frostbite. Therefore tropical kit presumably not a priority.

-- Edited by James H at 19:53, 2007-10-18

Aleksandr · Captain

22nd of December 1916 Russian cruiser PERESVET was blow up on Port Said road, after passing Suez Canal. 720 crew members (out of 800) was saved by English & French ships and plased at British military hospital.
May be this corporal took part in abovesaid?

James H · Legend

I don't think so at this stage, Aleksandr. I think he was in Mesopotamia rather than Egypt, as far as I know.

I'm just finding out how complicated�and interwoven the Caucasus/Armenian/Mesopotamian campaigns were. This is all new to me. There was certainly contact between Russian and British troops, but whether they fought together isn't clear yet.

Still digging.

MarkV · Lieutenant-Colonel

James,

Take a look at these links for online books mentioning the Russian/British interactions in central Asia:

Adventures of Dunsterforce

Kings Complete History of the World War

MarkV

James H · Legend

Ta for that, MarkV. Looking into it.

The Russians took a large part of N.E. Turkey, including Trabzon in one of the more imaginative combined ops actions of the whole War. Casualties on both sides were appalling, the Turks' largely from sickness, starvation, and cold.�Russians also advanced through the Caucasus into N. Persia, and were closing in on Baghdad from the N while the�British and Indians approached from the South. It was even believed that Russian pressure might help to�lift the siege at Kut. Meanwhile, both the Allies and the Central Powers were trying to stir up all kinds of political, ethnic, and religious unrest in�Armenia and Persia�in the hope of sparking revolts against their opposite numbers. It was even put about that the Kaiser had converted to Islam.

Dunsterforce is very interesting, but its exploits seem to be a series of heroic failures.

There are all sorts of tantalising references to British-Russian cooperation. A couple are enclosed:

March 15, 1916. -- The Russian troops in Persia are now so far advanced toward the Mesopotamian frontier that they may be said to be in virtual co-operation with the British at Kut-el-Amara, where General Townshend's forces have been cooped up for several months, and the campaign against Bagdad has become twofold, with the likelihood of the Russians being as important a factor in the Mesopotamian operations as their allies.

On May 20th a strong Russian Cavalry patrol of three officers and 110 other ranks arrived unexpectedly at Ali Gharbi. The patrol had started from the neighbourhood of Karind and had safely executed an adventurous march of some 200 miles, much of it through the Pusht-i-Kuh hills. The officers came to report themselves to me in person at Basrah, where, by command of His Majesty the King, I decorated them with the Military Cross, in recognition of their exploit, and of this, the first meeting of British and Russian troops as Allies in the field for 100 years. The patrol left Ali Gharbi on their return journey on June 4th, and after skilfully surmounting various difficulties succeeded in reaching their main body in safety.

The Campaign in Mesopotamia. Part of the Allied plan in the east was for the junction of Russian armies operating from the region of the Caucasus with British troops from the land around the Persian Gulf. While the Russians, as we have seen, were making a note-worthy success of their part of this program, the British had not been so fortunate. Their plan was to take possession of Mesopotamia, the valley of the Tigris-Euphrates, and occupy its capital, the famous city of Bagdad. General Townshend, with an insufficient force,�had begun his march up the Tigris River the year before and in March, 5, had occupied the stronghold of Kut-el-Ama'ra, about 100 miles below Bagdad. Here later he was besieged by a Turkish army. A Russian army on the way from Erzerum and an English relief force from the south failed to reach the place in time, and April 29, 1916, General Townshend was forced by starvation to surrender.

There is tons more. Russians in Basra? What's going on? And what was The Siberian Air Squadron?

I can't promise when, but I hope to put together an article including contemporary maps that will make the situation clear(er).

Incidentally, in the Second Lot, my old man was in the Duke of Lancaster's Own Yeomanry, by then an artillery regt. In The Great War the DLOY was still a cavalry regt. and was sent to the Near East (as it was then called). Imagine my surprise, as they say, to see that the cover illustration on Steven Bull's World War One British Army is of a mounted charge by the DLOY in Egypt, also showing a dismounted man firing a Short Hotchkiss / Bennet-Merci� as discussed elsewhere on the Forum.

Stand by.

eugene · Field Marshal

there is a good book like hidden fire, which deals with German plots and actions in the middle east during WWI, and there are some acounts of allied activity as well.

James H · Legend

eugene wrote:

there is a good book like hidden fire, which deals with German plots and actions in the middle east during WWI, and there are some acounts of allied activity as well.

Thanks, Eugene. I suspect that a central figure in that book will be Wilhelm Wassmuss, sometimes called The German Lawrence of Arabia. He seems to have been more of a spy and less of a warrior than T.E. Lawrence, and spent a lot of time travelling about attempting to destabilise what little government there was in the region and encourage pro-German sentiment and/or uprisings. Some critics think he greatly exaggerated, to put it politely, some of his exploits.

I'm finding out what an astonishingly complex theatre this was. The Anglo-Indian part is fairly straightforward, although it includes the siege of Kut,�which some describe as�Britain's biggest military defeat/humiliation.

On the Anatolian and Persian Fronts it's massively complicated, with areas being lost and retaken, and the British wanting Russian military assistance but desperate to stop them gaining a foothold in the area. At the same time there was an Armenian uprising, massacres of Armenians and Assyrians by Turks, and of Turks by Arabs. After the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, the Turks decided to attack the Russians again, and Germany had to step in to protect Russians from their own ally! After the Russian Revolution the ally now became the enemy and the fighting carried on after the War with an invasion of the USSR and the capture of Baku. Wounded and POWs were regularly butchered or marched to death during the Mesopotamian campaign, and the politics behind it all are Machiavellian. One source claims that the whole Dardanelles campaign was launched to take the pressure off the Russians at Sarikamis, a battle that the Russians almost immediately won.

Whether the British and Russians actually met up is still not clear to me; there's one claim that both occupied a town called Khanikin on the Mesopotamian-Persian border, but no definite confirmation.

From a Landships point of view, there were some interesting units involved, including an Australian Wireless Squadron, and there were huge numbers of motor vehicles - armoured cars, trucks, vans, and scout cars. Some splendid pictures of the campaign here:
http://www.pictureaustralia.org/apps/pictureaustralia?action=PASearch&mode=search&complete1=true&attribute1=subject&term1=1+Wireless+Signals+Squadron

A sobering note is that the initial force that landed near Basra was 4,500; 4 years later British and Indian deaths totalled 30,000, with Russian and Turkish�much more, and civilian deaths in the millions.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James heres a link to the assyrian levies has a good deal of the history during WW1, may have already posted elsewhere but i think it belongs here...

http://www.assyrianlevies.com/gpage8.html

Also this site has much of interest...

http://www.worldwar1.com/neareast/neareasthome.htm

Cheers

James H · Legend

Thanks, Ivor. Sorry if I'm crapping on about this, but it's the first time I've looked into this campaign, especially the caucasus Front. I'd no idea that the Russians even invaded Turkish territory.I haven't yet read anything that pulls the Mesopotamia/Anatolia/Persia campaigns together and explains how closely connected they were. If the consensus is that an article would be welcome I'll do one. If it's preferable that I shut up, I shall do so.

The Assyrian site is excellent, as is the Neareast one, although quite a lot of the links don't go anywhere. The�number and scale of atrocities in this theatre is astounding.

Something else that perhaps indicates�the sketchiness of�the info on the Caucasian Front is that there are conflicting reports as to whether Sarikamish was in Russia or the Ottoman Empire at the outbreak. Anyone know for certain?

J Fullerton · Captain

James H wrote:
Something else that perhaps indicates the sketchiness of the info on the Caucasian Front is that there are conflicting reports as to whether Sarikamish was in Russia or the Ottoman Empire at the outbreak. Anyone know for certain?

What are these conflicting reports? Sarikamish was part of the territory ceded to Russia after the 1877-8 war, and ceded back in 1921. Plus, it would have to be in Russia, since the Ottomans were the ones who attacked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TreatyofKarsMap.jpg

�

-- Edited by J Fullerton at 09:02, 2007-10-28

James H · Legend

Thanks, Joseph. I've since cleared the matter up. I found that some maps purporting to be of the 1914 boundaries showed the upper, starred, line on the map you've linked to as being the border, putting Kars, etc. in Russia. But you're right, it's the lower, dotted line that was the border in 1914. In fact the Treaty of San Stefano gave Russia even more territory, to the west, as far as Erzincan, but that was very soon somewhat reduced by the Treaty of Berlin, after the other Powers got a bit windy about Russian gains in the area.

It seems there were a few, brief contacts between the Anglo-Indian forces and the Russians, but the only vaguely substantial joint action was at a place called Kizil Robat on the Diyali River N.E. of Baghdad. It does give scope for�deploying the Strelets Cossacks (not sure which ones yet),�their Bengal Lancers, the H�T Turks, and the forthcoming H�T Indians, plus RR Armoured Cars and, no doubt, other vehicles that I have't pinned down yet.

Still haven't found out how Issy Smith came to get his gong.

Again, apologies if this is all old news, but I never realised how complex the situation was in this area. On top of it all, there was a British-sponsored security force called�the Persian Gendarmerie, whose officers were . . . . Swedish!

Research continues.

James H · Legend

James H wrote:

Thanks, Joseph. I've since cleared the matter up. I found that some maps purporting to be of the 1914 boundaries showed the upper, starred, line on the map you've linked to as being the border, putting Kars, etc. in Russia. But you're right, it's the lower, dotted line that was the border in 1914. In fact the Treaty of San Stefano gave Russia even more territory, to the west, as far as Erzincan, but that was very soon somewhat reduced by the Treaty of Berlin, after the other Powers got a bit windy about Russian gains in the area.

It seems there were a few, brief contacts between the Anglo-Indian forces and the Russians, but the only vaguely substantial joint action was at a place called Kizil Robat on the Diyali River N.E. of Baghdad. It does give scope for�deploying the Strelets Cossacks (not sure which ones yet),�their Bengal Lancers, the H�T Turks, and the forthcoming H�T Indians, plus RR Armoured Cars and, no doubt, other vehicles that I have't pinned down yet.

Still haven't found out how Issy Smith came to get his gong.

Again, apologies if this is all old news, but I never realised how complex the situation was in this area. On top of it all, there was a British-sponsored security force called�the Persian Gendarmerie, whose officers were . . . . Swedish!

Research continues.

Whatever next? Just discovered excellent account of joint Anglo-Russian actions in 1918 as observed by Lt-Col Edward Davis . . . . of the United States Cavalry.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James, seems the russians were in Hamadan, Persia on 1918-06-29 when this photo was taken..(from australian 1 wireless signals squadron)

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/P00562.126

Heres some pics of Armoured Cars, I found the "recovery" pic most interesting has a captured martinside G.100 in turkish markings....

http://www.pictureaustralia.org/apps/pictureaustralia?term1=armoured++mesopotamia&Submit=search&action=PASearch&attribute1=any+field&mode=search

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 12:15, 2007-10-30

-- Edited by Ironsides at 12:16, 2007-10-30

James H · Legend

Lovely stuff, Ivor. This gets more fascinating every day.

From what I've read, ANZAC troops were entirely support and technical in this theatre.

The Russians had mostly thrown the towel in by June 1918, as the effects of the Revolution spread to the Caucasus and Persian Fronts. Those that stayed to join Dunsterforce did so pretty much voluntarily and probably had Tsarist sympathies. There's a reference to an outfit nicknamed Hush Hush, which I think is Dunsterforce, and it contained at least one American. Dunsterforce reminds me of a Marx Brothers film in which, with no real explanation,�a band of horsemen is repeatedly shown galloping to the rescue. At the very end of the film they arrive just as it's all over, and the leader looks to camera and says, "Oh, well. It was exciting though, wasn't it?" Perhaps�I do them a disservice.

What I'm finding a problem is that many of the place names have alternative spellings or have changed since 1918. At Jabil Hamrin, on the Diyala River,�there was definitely Anglo-Russian cooperation. Trouble is, there are three places with that name in a smallish area.

An interesting comment in the American notes on the campaign is that the Russians in the area did the Allied cause "more harm than good".

If you go to this link and enter mespotamia http://www.pictureaustralia.org/apps/pictureaustralia?action=PASearch&mode=display&rs=resultset-946808&no=1

there are dozens of excellent photographs, including Holt tractors, anti-aircraft railway trucks, motorised rail ambulances all manner of horse-drawn vehicles, and plenty of Model Ts, pic of which attached.

On we go.

-- Edited by James H at 16:00, 2007-10-30

James H · Legend

Got a little bit further. The key to the Russian presence in Mespotamia was the Paitak Pass. Turkish forces prevented them from advancing south from�Bitlis and Mush. The alternative was to cross into M from western Persia and approach B from the NE. The only practical way through the mountains was via the Paitak Pass, which�was contested by the Turks. There were several battles for this pass (still reading up on that one) but eventually the Russians were able to enter Mesop and establish an enclave in the Khanikin area, almost as far as Baquba. That's where the contacts were. Pic attached.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James, It must said�I find the horse drawn wireless sets a bit bizarre....you might expect the transport to be more... well.... modern....

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/P00562.195

Cheers

James H · Legend

It's an AM radio, so they couldn't use it in the afternoon.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Stop Press: It's wrong! I'm grateful to a member of the British Medal Forum who tells me that Issy Smith was awarded the St. George's Cross on the 26th April 1915, only 3 or 4 days after his VC. It was part of a package in which he also got the Croix de Guerre. Sort of a medal for getting a medal. This was long before he was posted to Mesopotamia. The Russian soldier story seems to be a mistake that has been propagated on the Net; the same�quote is everywhere.

Still,�it got me into the whole thing about the Russians, which I knew nothing about�before.�

-- Edited by James H at 03:56, 2007-10-31

Ironsides · Legend

James H wrote:

Stop Press: It's wrong! I'm grateful to a member of the British Medal Forum who tells me that Issy Smith was awarded the St. George's Cross on the 26th April 1915, only 3 or 4 days after his VC. It was part of a package in which he also got the Croix de Guerre. Sort of a medal for getting a medal. This was long before he was posted to Mesopotamia. The Russian soldier story seems to be a mistake that has been propagated on the Net; the same�quote is everywhere.

Hi James, if thats the case I believe the source may be this photo on The AWM site I also think this is where�I saw the original story when looking for pics of mesopotamia a while ago............

http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/044296

Here's a clue to the�Order of St George found here, this is from the sale of the medals in 1995...

http://www.dnw.co.uk/dnw/medals/FMPro?-db=dnwmedals&-format=vcdetail.htm&-lay=master&-sortfield=vc%20recipient&GalleryFlag=VC&-max=50&-recid=12614929&-find=

"On 26 August, 1915, Smith was among eleven V.C.s honoured by the Tsar, when he was awarded the Order of St George, 4th class "

As it happens there are 136+ references to Issy Smith V.C on google...
although after some checking there appears to be only about 20 or so complete entries the rest are mostly indexes .......some use the wording from avm almost exactly.......

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22Issy+Smith+v.c%22&btnG=Search&meta=

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 11:14, 2007-11-01

James H · Legend

Thanks again, Ivor. Amazingly, through communicating with the bloke at the Medals Forum, I've discovered that my grandad was at the Delhi Durbar in 1911. Talk�about Who Do You Think You Are?�
Anyway, here's a map of how far the Russians got in Mesopotamia - through the Paitak pass as far as Diyala and Panjwin. They were later pushed back into Persia, the major action being at Khanaqin. The road south from Ilam goes to a place called Badrah, joining with the track from Mandali, but the only road from there goes to Kut, so presumably the Russians didn't have sufficient strength to get through the besieging Turks. How the Russian cavalry got to Ali Gharbi, downstream from Kut is hard to say, unless they went across country, which you'll see from the map can't have been easy.

Also a pic of the Paitak Pass in 1942. What a place.

Ellis & Bishop contains an excellent write-up on the Model Ts and other vehicles used in Mesopotamia. Plate 69.

MarkV · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello,

This just popped up for sale online:

Neglected War

There is at least one photo in this book showing a group of British and Russian officers in Mesopotamia.� The seller has posted a scan of the image.

I don't have a copy of this book and am not connected to the seller in any way.

MarkV

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James, I came across this and thought it might confirm some of your findings concerning Issy Smith V.C ,there is also a link to the Manchester Regiment homepage...

http://britishmedalforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=173752&highlight=&sid=50e8b6ad0c09e24ed594489d27592864

http://www.themanchesters.org/

Cheers

James H · Legend

MarkV wrote:

Hello,

This just popped up for sale online:

Neglected War

There is at least one photo in this book showing a group of British and Russian officers in Mesopotamia.� The seller has posted a scan of the image.

I don't have a copy of this book and am not connected to the seller in any way.

MarkV

I don't believe this. I've just Googled the vendor, Ctesiphon Books, and he lives across the road from me. We've got the same postcode.

I'm going to put my coat on and go and make him an offer.

Thanks, Mark.

James H · Legend

Absolutely, definitely the last word on this.

The Russian advance against the Turks was on two fronts, one pivoting on Lake Van and a moving into NE Iraq through Piranshahr and Rayat from the Urmia region, and the other down the east of the Zagros mountains then through Bakhtaran (Kermanshah) and the Paitak Pass. The Turks delayed them at Paitak for 10 days, but eventually they made it through to Qizil Robat, where they "joined hands" with British forces on April 2nd, 1917.

The Revolution was beginning to erode the Rusian effort, and on April 23rd, General Maude was told that the Russians would do nothing more than hold�the line�Rawanduz-Sulaimaniya-Qizil Robat. Greatly disappointed, Maude advanced his Anglo-Indians (now with a few ANZACS) to�the line Adham-Samara-Fallujah.

This was the high-water mark of Anglo-Russian cooperation. From early May the Russians began to retire and their contribution dwindled to nothing. Dunsterforce arose as a consequence.

Map of final positions in April '17 enclosed.

-- Edited by James H at 14:32, 2007-11-07

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James, did you try the london gazette for info on izzy smith heres a link it makes interesting reading and confirms your findings.....look for "168 acting Corporal/private Issy Smith"......this confirms the VC�in the 3rd supplement for 20/8/15 published on 23/8/15 the very next day�24/8/15 issy recieves his george cross 4th class�..........

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/SearchResults.aspx?GeoType=London&st=adv&sb=date&hedocid=1143691&FDay=28&FMth=6&FYr=1914&TDay=31&TMth=12&TYr=1920&all=issy%20smith&atleast=Corporal%20Issy%20Smith&

is this what was meant by being Gazetted......

Cheers

James H · Legend

Fantastic. It's all there. Took me a minute or two to fathom out how the site works, but got there.

So the Order of St. G was awarded to Pte. Smith four days after his VC, when he'd never seen a Russian or been to Mesopotamia.

Game, set, and match. The AWM have agreed to amend their entry, and I shall invite Mr. Harris to cut and paste it, then shove it.

And The Gazette looks like another good source for research.

Thanks a million, Ivor.

J

Mark Hansen · Legend

James H wrote:

...Game, set, and match. The AWM have agreed to amend their entry, and I shall invite Mr. Harris to cut and paste it, then shove it...

Sounds suitably painful wink !

I told you they were good guys at the AWM.

Ironsides · Legend

James H wrote:

Game, set, and match. The AWM have agreed to amend their entry, and I shall invite Mr. Harris to cut and paste it, then shove it.

And The Gazette looks like another good source for research.

Hi James, just my thoughts entirely, I'm allways amazed at just how many original sources are on line....and out there to find if you know they exist, that of course is the problem, the gazette holds all official annoncements , medals awarded, promotions etc so it would seem to be an exellent source for dates...I believe the records go back 350 years....so will cover the Boer War, Zulu War etc although I havent tested this yet...

I found it curious that Issy.Smith was an acting corporal for the VC but only a private for his George cross obviously some politicing going on.....

It also occured to me that Bieng Gazetted was a promotion....

Cheers