Landships II

James H · Legend

Buses on Western Front

d_fernetti · Hero

I have an old Airfix 1/32 kit of the type bus, with cardboard placards, in a fashion much like this one. It's the same B type bus kit as in the civilian guise (usually molded in red) but this one is molded in dark green plastic, and has military figures in it. The figures aren't too well sculpted, and most come in two parts, whch makes conversions quite difficult. The uniforms are of the 1914 type, with flat "stiff" peaked caps.
What's interesting about these pictures is that the bus seems to have lost one of its front lights. Was it usual?

James H · Legend

Blimey, Diego, that's going back a long way. That version of the B-Type was marketed as the "Old Bill Bus", if I remember. It had planking to cover the windows. I've never seen the real thing, but they're on Ebay sometimes for a lot of money.

I can't offer an explanation for the missing lamp, but I suppose the vehicles did get knocked about a lot.

I think this picture is later than 1914 for several reasons. The British troops seem to be wearing soft service caps; the buses and trucks look as if they've been very thoroughly modified for the Front, to an extent I don't think would have been seen in 1914.

The troops in sidecaps might be Belgian; one of the caps looks as if it might have the Belgian piping, but the Belgian�bonnet de police�wasn't as upswept as the French calot d'infanterie, which was issued in late 1914. So far, I haven't come across any references to troops other than British being transported in British buses, and I can't think of occasions when they might have been. But they obviously were.

d_fernetti · Hero

Yes! It was the Old Bill bus indeed. I got it for a few bucks some moons ago from a good friend who wasn't interested in it. Such a nice Airfix kit. I'm tempted to build it someday OOB.
I have a theory on what may depict this picture: Scottish troops wearing glengarry caps. Perhaps with a few French poilus to say "you agggge lost-uh, Bgggitish!"

alfisherjr · Colonel

The wheels on the Airfix bus look awfully big as is the driver. Does anyone know what scale it's in?

Al

d_fernetti · Hero

It's supposed to be 1/32 scale. I don't know about the wheels, but I once saw a bus driver who was awfully big.

alfisherjr · Colonel

. . . but I once saw a bus driver who was awfully big.

Luv it!

Al

Paul Bonnett · Hero

Does anybody have some actual measurements so that we can check the accuracy of the Airfix kit. I too have one waiting to be built,but will be replacing the figures.
Paul

d_fernetti · Hero

Unfortunately, it's been a lot of time since I last saw that awfully big bus driver. Anyway he didn't seemed too prone to be measured.
Now, about the kit, I guess I have it in the cupboard. Which would be the relevant measurements needed to be taken from it?

-- Edited by d_fernetti at 02:21, 2007-10-27

Paul Bonnett · Hero

http://www.olebill.zoomshare.com/1.html

The above link has some information on these buses, starting about half way down the page. Included are some basic measurements .
Paul

alfisherjr · Colonel

Borrowed Bruce and Curtis' "The London Motor Bus - its origins and development" from a friend today. The inside front cover has a plan view of the Type B bus, giving the wheelbasa as 12'10". Diameter of the wheels appeared to work out to be 39.8 inches. Could one of you check this out against the model to se if its truly 1:32 scale?

Al

James H · Legend

d_fernetti wrote:

A) What's interesting about these pictures is that the bus seems to have lost one of its front lights. Was it usual?

B) I have a theory on what may depict this picture: Scottish troops wearing glengarry caps.

A) Apparently so. Early versions were fitted with only one lamp, on the off (right-hand) side - approved by the Metropolitan Police.

B) I don't think so. If anything, the Glengarry slopes downwards, front and rear.

Now; I have got hold of a copy of a blueprint of the B-Type's overall dimensions and scanned the Keil Kraft 1/72 B-Type. The latter is�in khaki. I've lined up the wheelbases, and, as you can see, the height is about right, but the overall length is woefully short and everything proportionately undersize. That explains why the seated crew members from the Airfix/H�T RHA don't fit in the seats as they might be expected to. The bonnet is also too short and high. Sadly, then, the Keil Kraft is a poor basis for a fully�accurate bus on the 1/72 Western Front.

-- Edited by James H at 13:32, 2007-11-21

Ironsides · Legend

Hi James how about 1/87...I found the same problem with the RHA seated figures but they dont fit in the RPM ford ambulance either!...

Cheers

James H · Legend

Ironsides wrote:

Hi James how about 1/87...I found the same problem with the RHA seated figures but they dont fit in the RPM ford ambulance either!...

Cheers

It's not a problem of scale with the Keil Kraft. The height and wheel base are in proportion; it's just that the vehicle is too short, sort of concertinaed. The Corgi/Ledo diecast in this scan seems to be about 1/87 but has the same problem. The bonnet is more like it, but the body is too short and you'll notice that the guardrail on the stairs is much more sharply curved. (Sorry it's a scan - have lent my camera)

The RHA men will fit in the driver's seat on the bus, but not on the top deck. I've got a pic somewhere, when I can find it. I haven't tried cramming them into the Model T.

On a brighter note, the Preiser 1/87 Airline Pilots (one shown in the pic) will pass for British Officers or, with a bit of sanding, Other Ranks. We still haven't got a correct B-Type, though. If someone, maybe alfisherjr,�can scan the Airfix 1/32 we might at least be able to clear that up.

Found the other pics. Can't promise what order they will be in.

-- Edited by James H at 19:27, 2007-11-21

alfisherjr · Colonel

Not Old Bill, but I see that eBak UK has a Dennis fire engine listed . . . item #130174456821.

Al

alfisherjr · Colonel

OK . . . from "The London Motor Bus . . . its origins and developmant" by J Graeme Bruce and Colin H Curtis.

alfisherjr · Colonel

Don't know what happened to the images . .�.�I'll try and research it tomorrow or Friday.

Al

James H · Legend

Have got hold of an interesting book, The London B-Type Motor Omnibus 1910-1927, by G.J. Robbins & J.B. Atkinson.

A curious volume: printed & published by Captain Atkinson at 23 Waterloo Road, Hong Kong, 1970. It's very nicely bound, but�appears to have been done on a typewriter, partly in the trendy cursive script that was briefly all the rage in pre-PC days, and on same-size pages. 160-odd pages, seventy of which are mystifying lists of service numbers. However, there's an excellent chapter on The Bus on War Service 1914-18, including all the different body types and the various uses to which the AEC chassis was put.

Going back to the Keil Kraft kit, it does seem to be partly 1/72 (the wheelbase and cab) and partly 1/76 or smaller (upper deck and body length). And it's not based on Old Bill in the IWM; there are several visible differences. It seems to have been based on the B-Type in the London Transport Museum.

Ironsides · Legend

�
James H Wrote
� "Going back to the Keil Kraft kit, it does seem to be partly 1/72 (the wheelbase and cab) and partly 1/76 or smaller (upper deck and body length). And it's not based on Old Bill in the IWM; there are several visible differences. It seems to have been based on the B-Type in the London Transport Museum."

Hi James, it doesnt suprise me to be honest most of these old kits are inaccurate in one form or another, it just depends really on if you can live with it or put it right..... of course this also applys to many new kits too, for myself models represent an impression�rather then a replica in miniature...
however I draw the line at kits like the Kielkraft Sopwith Camel which to my eye at least allways looked more like a Handriot.......
�
Cheers

Paul Bonnett · Hero

I have just measured the wheelbase on the Airfix 1/32 bus and it works out to be 13ft 2in,
the seating does not look big enough to hold 1/32 figures though so I will do some more measuring.
Paul

James H · Legend

Paul Bonnett wrote:

I have just measured the wheelbase on the Airfix 1/32 bus and it works out to be 13ft 2in,
the seating does not look big enough to hold 1/32 figures though so I will do some more measuring.
Paul

That's not bad. According to the plans, it should be 12ft 10.5/8in, overall length (from front end of starting handle!) 22' 6.1/2".

Width across upper deck, rail-to-rail,�6' 10".

Apologies to non-Imperial members.

Paul Bonnett · Hero

Length is spot on, topdeck rail to rail is 6ft 9in, rear wheel dia. 39ins so not to bad overall
Paul

alfisherjr · Colonel

OK . . . let's try again . . . from "The London Motor Bus . . . its origins and developmant" by J Graeme Bruce and Colin H Curtis.� My friend John Loop of San Diego, CA, kindly lent me this and several other vehicle related books.� John has an extensive collection of� books of military and fire related vehicles, but unfortunately fo us, has no access to the Internet.

Al

James H · Legend

Paul - good news about the Airfix.

alfisherjr - I managed to get a copy of�Bruce & Curtis for �6 ($12). I think it was underpriced; other copies are more expensive, but I've got it now.

Don't know what I did wrong on the first scan, but I've now done a more careful one and revised my opinion. I measured the overall length of the kit and scaled it up, and, to my surprise, it's about right. Yet the upper deck is still obviously too small. This is the problem: the body is too short and the staircase makes up the difference and is entirely the wrong shape. You'll see that the new comparison is much closer, although the bonnet is still too tall.

The four downstairs windows are, according to the plan, each 2'8" wide, plus frames (3x2" + 2x3.5"). On the kit they scale up to about 2'4", a total loss of
1'4" on the body length. It doesn't sound much, but the bus itself was under 7' wide (a modern bus is about 8'). So you're losing 1'4" from a lower deck length of about 11'9" - about 9%, which means the problem area is more like 1/76 than 1/72. The difference is carried to the upper deck, which is why the 1/72 passengers won't fit. (Feel free to correct these figures)

When I get my camera back I'll do a comparison between the rear of the kit and the bus itself. Sure, the overall size isn't far off, but if you wanted to do a realistic diorama, with a bus carrying two dozen fully-equipped men, there's no way round this problem without a�massive rebuild, as far as I can see. The body needs to be about 6mm longer, extending further onto the rear platform. Unfortunately, that would involve inserting an extra 1.5mm�behind each of the 4 windows, replacing the sides, rebuilding the stairs, and replacing the upstairs seats. Fiendishly difficult.

Still doesn't explain who those blokes on the bus are.

-- Edited by James H at 23:53, 2007-11-25

-- Edited by James H at 23:56, 2007-11-25

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

As has already been pointed out in other parts of this forum, at least one AEC B-type bus (London General Omnibus Co (LGOC) fleet number B 752) had its body replaced with an armoured one.� See:

Major Samson armoured truck

Armoured truck

So for those who dont want to struggle with a bus body, do a conversion! wink

But is the bus in the photos at the start an LGOC�B-type?� The header tank is not as normally found on their B-types; however, it is just like those found on other vehicles made by AEC and their close relatives, Daimlers.� I suspect what we have here is a Daimler, possibly one used by the Metropolitan Electric Tramways Co (MET).

In the article Bus ride to death (Old Motor magazine, Jan 1967), which contains some useful photographs of B-types and Daimlers, including a pigeon loft conversion of a B-type (B 2132 / WD number 2229), it says:

...the idea [that it would be more efficient to move troops to the front by motor transport, rather than by foot from the nearest port or railhead] is accredited to a staff officer, Colonel Ollivant, but was quickly seized upon by the Admiralty.� The First Lord of the Admiralty at that time was Winston Churchill, who appeal straight away to the LGOC to provide buses and drivers for immediate service in France.� A tremendous response was received from drivers all over the fleet and, the next day, some 75 buses, each with a crew of two drivers, were lined up on the Embankment for enlistment into the Marines and immediate departure to Dunkirk... �The buses they took with them were blue-painted sleeve valve Daimlers, which the General operated on behalf of the MET...� these particular Daimlers were to remain under the control of the Royal Naval Department throughout the war.

Sorry James, this isnt much help in explaining who the passengers are!

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

Arrgh!� Just found these pictures of the IWM's B-type, which is sporting a radiator header tank just like normal AEC and Daimler ones!� So maybe the one at the start�is a B-type after all.� Serves me right for being clever.

http://www.wwi-models.org/app/album/Acn.php?base=%2FPhotos%2FVeh%2FLondonBus&hdr=London+Bus&picInx=5

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

Some great pictures of B-Types here:
http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/tfl/collections/vehicles/b-type.aspx

I love the painting of one in action.� I wonder if prints are available...

This is interesting: http://www.timebus.co.uk/rlh/aec.htm.� Does this mean the IWM B-type is incorrect - the�'General' radiator coming from a 1926 or later�vehicle?

Which brings me back to my original thoughts on the opening pictures...

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Runflat , I would think during its colourfull life that the spec of "Old Bill" has changed as often as its overhauls, would I be right in saying that the bus was pentioned off in 1920 and then refurbished maybe this took till 1926 to complete.....

Cheers

Paul Bonnett · Hero

General was used on radiators from 1912 to 1926 when the logo was changed to AEC. In the early years they were all hand built and there was therefore slight differences from one bus to the next.
I have an early Airfix civilian type and the standing conductor measures 50mm, so is not 1/32 scale, although the bus itself is quite accurate. Be nice if Airfix re-released it in 1/35 to accompany the Emhar kits.

� Paul

-- Edited by Paul Bonnett at 00:00, 2007-12-03

Runflat · Lieutenant-Colonel

I've now rediscovered in my library another article on WW1 buses this time by Richard Peskett, the respected historian and restorer of early buses and commercial vehicles (including the IWMs WW1 Thornycroft J�type anti-aircraft lorry): Ole Bill, The Automobile Magazine, January 1986.

The article shows a picture of the IWMs B-type at Buckingham Palace, February 14^th, 1920 sporting its General radiator.� So that answers that!

The second photo at the start of this string is also reproduced, showing it in convoy with other vehicles.� It is captioned: MET Daimler at Fauquembergues, Pas de Cali on p�ve roads pursued by a US built Riker, May 1918.

-- Edited by Runflat at 14:59, 2007-12-24

-- Edited by Runflat at 15:00, 2007-12-24

Doctor Bill · Corporal

The buses in these pictures are Daimlers. The first picture shows a Daimler charabanc and a Daimler bus behind. The second shows a Daimler bus. The giveaway is the Daimler radiator. The unit sign on the side of the charabanc is the Britannia penny sign of the 16th Auxiliary Omnibus Company formerly the Royal Marine Transport Company. The pictures are all taken on the same day and show them carrying French troops.

Doctor Bill · Corporal

The Daimler buses had a radiator with a domed top. During the 1914-18 war the LGOC only used the flat topped radiator on its B-types. After the war they used the dome type with the AEC badge on it. B43 "Ole Bill" did serve in France but after returning to London was extensively repaired with a new body and a new radiator. Probably the only really original bits of "Ole Bill" are the chassis numbers!!!

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Are they wearing their gas masks? (left picture, guys on deck)

Kieffer

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=359

Here's a link to�a B type (WW1)�and Ol' Bill video (1960), Isle of Man trams first.

Has any one good closeup photos of the B type Wheels?

Chris

Rob · Legend

Give me until Tuesday night and I should have some close up photos of the B type wheels at the IWM

Rob · Legend

Right-oh, got a load of photos of the IWM B type - if interested, PM me your e-mail address and i'll send them over as soon as possible

Michael Taylor · Lieutenant-Colonel

If I remember correctly, the IWM bus has later front wheels. The originals have spokes with a cruciform section. I recall reading that the type now seen were a post war addition, (also depicted in the old Airfix kit).

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Bus Experts,

probably you know this picture, taken in Brugge. Caption says that part of the advertising panel refers to a play called Diplomacy, played at the Wyndham's Theatre in London.
And that the bus is an AEC Btype of the London MET, but that'll be no knews for you.

regards, Kieffer

Date: Feb 28, 2010

This is a Daimler CC Type bus.� It is of similar appearance but the radiator shape and the "D" number prefix on the bonnet side give it away.

Gordon McLaughlin

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi,� to give me a bit of a relief from the�flat plates and rivets of the tanks, I'm drawing a B type lorry to 1/15th scale to work on when I hit a dead spot on the tanks.

I though it would be easy, take one Airfix B type, scale the chassis etc.� 2.1333333333 times and apresto I've got a lorry. I should know that life isn't like that, detail that is ok at 1/35th is not very good for 1/15th.��

Is there any one out there who could check the dimensions of the drawings I've attached, and others I'll produce? Are the IWM and LTM�Bs the only ones in the UK?
I'd like to follow the example of Mk1 Nut and if there is enough interest to
start a topic to post the finished drawings and build.

Rob has supplied me with photos of the IWM Old Bill, but I prefer the 1910�radiator on the LTM bus.

Hoping someone can help,�
Chris.