Landships II

Establishment of Abt. 17-22 was ordered but never executed. - The Württembergers and Saxons would have formed the core for one of the new Schwere Abteilungen 101-107 (this number system was subject to constant change), which were to have 3 companies of five tanks each.

Two Saxon companies and one Württemberg one were to form Detachment 106. Three Bavarian companies were intended for Detachment 105, one of these the ancient Abt. 13.
There's some contradiction in this, old Abt. 11 to 16 each were to be the cadre for one new detachment. However, Detachment 106 would only have new companies, no veterans.

The 101 to 107 business is rather tricky. At one occasion, the A7V detachment is 101, on the next it is 1, while 101 t0 107 are reserved for the captured Mk.IVs. - In the next instant, 107 has been chancelled because of consummation of tanks - and 101 is the A7V detachment again.
This was only a brief planning phase in late September and early October 1918. Nothing solid ever came from it. And no unit ever changed to the new organisation. Just paper works.

What I can tell about the "Königlich Württembergische Sturmpanzerwagenabteilung" is:

a) Yes, the unit was built.
b) Soldiers were transfered to it and also trainined.
c) After the armistice it was named "Württembergische Sturmpanzerwagenabteilung" - no number(s)
d) The unit was defintely existing until 23.11.1918 (minimum)
e) The commander was Lt. Finckbeiner

I owned a "Militärpass" of a driver within this unit. But I don't know if he was truck driver or tank driver. But his document says he was trained on shooting with an AA gun on a truck. this may conclude that he was trained as a tank driver and had futher training as a guner too.

"This is just a theory, but this training with an AA gun on a truck sounds to me like it could plausibly have been an improvised method of providing tank gunnery training (from a motorised platform) when an actual 'Male' tank was not available for the purpose."

This is what I was trying to say.

Regarding your question I had a look into his documents and I am afraid I mixed up a few things. It is not a "Militärpass", it is a "Soldbuch".

btw: His civilian profession was "Kraftwagenfahrer" (truck driver)!

In 1914 his first unit was the "4. Württ. Feldart.-Regt. No. 65 / 1. Batterie", as he allready had served in this unit before the war. Please note: traditionally in German Artillery 1st Battery is the staff, supply and maintenance unit.

In February 1916 he went to the technical company of the "Württ. Ersatz-Abteilung der Kraftfahrtruppen".

December 1916 he was sent to training of "Flugabwehrkanone auf Kraftwagen 81" (AA gun on truck 81) at 1st Army (no more details) and then served in the AA gun unit of 1st. Army, group C.

Now it is going strange, because he served there until 1st February 1917 and then no details in the Soldbuch until 5th January 1918. On 5th January 1918 the document says "versetzt zu Fahrschule" (sent to driving school) of "Württ. Ersatz-Abteilung der Kraftfahrtruppen".

What did he do in the "missing" time? Maybe something new an secret?

Then in May 1918 he was sent to another unit within "Württ. Ersatz-Abteilung der Kraftfahrtruppen" and again it was a "Fahrschule". The weird thing here is: the unit stamp and handwritings were canceled by a big fat red pencil and something writen with that pen, but I can't read it. In German documents unsally that means: he was sent there and they couldn't "use" him, because the unit (maybe) did not receive the weapons (or whatelse) he was sent there for. In fact he was only 1 day there (29th May 1918)!

Then again no details until 9th September 1918. Next detail is again a driving school until 30th September 1918.

Btw: for a professional truck driver he was very often in a drinving school - wasn't he?

And now it is going realy weird or maybe very logical if you have a look at the history of the tank units. From 30th September to the 23rd November 1918 he served in a unknown unit of the "Württ. Ersatz-Abteilung der Kraftfahrtruppen".

But he was NOT in the Württemberg tank detachment, because he has no stamp mark of that unit, which the tank unit used BEFORE the armistice!

And now the real surprise: he was sent to the "Württ. Sturm Panzerwagen Abtl." on 23rd November 1918! After the armistice! And his documents show the stamp mark of that unit without kings crown as it was used immediatelly after the war.

The last records from 30th November 1918 on, I don't get. Because there are stamps (after-war-use without kings crown) and an extra page from "Württ. Kraftfahr-Ersatz-Abt. Nr. 13 / Ersatz-Kompagnie" and the "Württ. Ersatz-Abteilung der Kraftfahr-Truppen / Techn. Komp.". Please note the different writings. What I am trying to say: Maybe was relieved from military service (there is a record with "got relieve sold of 50 Marks") and then immidiatelly joined the "vorläufige Reichswehr".

Facing the facts that he was very often in drving schools and also in "technical" units and he was a NCO, I believe that he was very early and directly involved in the development of the German tank units. Btw.: reading his "Soldbuch" reminds me on the history of Unteroffizier (NCO) Fritz Leu who was the first capturing a running tank. Leu was also sent very often to different units and then sent immediatelly to another because the tanks were not available at the time when they should be.

You are right mad zeppelin, especially as German NCOs are allways instructors too (beside Infantry and NSCo with special duties, like cooks or staff members), but ...

... why then change so often the units? Especially to non-driving-school-units? Why this short periodes of staying there? Usually they stayed there as an instructor.
... and why train him on AA gun?
... and why send him to a tank unit?

Also ... usually to that time, it was said when an NCO with such a special experience was used as an instructor.
The very short times he spent in some units indicates that he was there for training. As an instructor he needs some time to prepare the training for the soldiers to be trained and an instructor is used for more than one time training.

In fact ... I guess he was no instructor, but it is just a guess.

Elbavaro -

It is most unfortunate it is not the Militärpass you have, which might have explained all those odd transfers rather more clearly. It does seem plausible to me that your man was an instructor. Possibly he also had additional valuable skills as a professional civilian, such as vehicle repairs and maintenance.

I suppose it is possible that an element of the K.W. KEA (as you have stamps for several different sub-units within the Ersatz-Abteilung) might also have been stationed at the Prussian tank driving establishment? This element could then have taken over replacement and training for the K.W. tankmen (and maintenance of the training machines) at a new independent facility in Württemberg once the K.W. Army received their allotted tanks. Possibly the transfers show the organisational development of the Ersatz element for the K.W. tank unit?

The post-war stamps are certainly surprising. I am guessing that if the above theory is correct, he may have been put on the books of Finckbeiner's unit for pay purposes after the dissolution of his training element, then transferred again when Finckbeiner's unit was dissolved.

Is there any indication when he finally left the army?


Mad Zeppelin -

This is fascinating information. Given the dates, it would seem that Leutnants Hoffmann and Paul possibly belonged to the embryonic K.S. Abteilung before they served in 'Prussian' Abteilungen in the field? I can imagine that the frustration of waiting for the Saxon unit to be properly formed, equipped with its own tanks and ready to fight could have driven enthusiastic young Saxon tank officers to volunteer for a posting with another unit in order to get some actual combat experience.

The 101 business is also interesting. Realistically, the end of A7V manufacture meant that a new-style three-company establishment with 15 tanks would not have been sustainable for long due to wastage in combat - the futility of such a reorganisation might have been realised sooner than the futility of a reorganisation for the Beute-Abteilungen which BAKP 20 could not realistically support.

Thankyou! I have been reading about Niergnies and noticed from an older thread that Lt. Paul's tank had been identified (by yourself, I think) as the Male which was knocked out by an abandoned 77mm gun manned by British tankmen.

This additional information re. Paul and Hoffmann is extremely helpful, as it means I can identify both of their machines with 100% certainty in Volckheims account (and the British sources).

Is it known what the names were (if any) of the tanks commanded by Paul and Hoffmann in this battle?

Excellent, thanks - I have just looked through the pages on this battle in Volckheims book in detail, and was very pleased to be able to identify the relevant tanks in the account. My Saxon colleague in Dresden will be very excited to hear about this when he gets back from his holiday next week.

Presumably then (because Abt. 15's other Male was still running in the afternoon) the first of the two German 'Males' knocked out in the battle with the British tanks (the second being Paul's 219, hit by the 77mm) must have been from Abt. 11?

This means that the German account in the scanned documents on the old thread 'tank vs tank at Agwoint' (sic.) is in error.

Comparing that account to Volckheim, it would seem then that the first German 'Male' of Verst. Abt. 15 to be hit (at a range of only 40 metres) must have been the one that was damaged in the tank vs. tank battle but was still able to drive back to the Sammelplatz - whilst the tank that was lost completely, with the entire crew 'missing', must have been the unfortunate Lt. Semmler's female.