Landships II

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Making Tracks - British, Great War.

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi,

here's some images of tracks, the drawing is from a manufacturing original.

Rob · Legend

1/76 for me - I prefer small scale, so either 1/76 or 1/72, and prefer 1/76 as the 'basics', such as Matador, Airfix are in that scale, as well as WD Models and also OO gauge model railways which can be useful

MK1 Nut · Hero

My scale will be 1/6� confuse

I blame my friends for not saying it's a mad idea!� smile

I now know of a 1/7 scale MKIV that uses bicycle type chain with the plates screwed to them.

I'm thinking of maybe going another route and seeing if someone like http://www.mark-1-tank.co.uk/ can get them made if i make up a pattern.

Who knows I have worked with fibreglass before ... maybe a 1/6 Kit!

Still thats's some time off yet.

Helen

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Lincoln Tanker,�I voted for 1/72 but 1/76 would be equally appropriate currently have a number of kits on the go in both these scales maybe I'll finish them someday..

Cheers smile

baldwin · Hero

Some time ago I asked if there were any etched tracks available for replacing the ones in the Holt kit. Do you think an etch for tanks etc would be viable? If so I could ask the guy that does the etch work for W^D but would like to get an idea of how viable a proposition it would be.

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Everyone

Has anyone ever thought of using a stamp and die to make the track plates in thin plastic or brass, and moulding the links in resin?

I just think it would give a nicer look in 1/32 scale for example.

Helen

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Yes Hellen, I reckon that would be the best way of tackling the tracks. From memory the Heavy Tanks had 10mm thick plate for the for the track plates and the Whippet had 8mm, so in 1/35th the plates would be 0.28mm thick for the Heavies. Molding that would be difficult, a tool could be made to press the rivets from the underside. Cyno glue should be ok for sticking the plates and links together.
That is how I intend making my 1/15th track.

There�are problems with this method, the�biggest one I reckon is providing clearance�for the next track link, the next link tucks under�and controlling the gap may be difficult. See my pic in a previous post.

I've attached a photo of a�plate pressed from dies I made for a 1/4 scale MarkIV, they need improving as the ends of the toblerones are too pinched in.� This track plate was machined to give clearance, this would be difficult with thin aluminium.

All the best for the New Year

Rob · Legend

baldwin wrote:

Some time ago I asked if there were any etched tracks available for replacing the ones in the Holt kit. Do you think an etch for tanks etc would be viable? If so I could ask the guy that does the etch work for W^D but would like to get an idea of how viable a proposition it would be.

�Hi mate, I could see it being viable for the 1/72 and 1/76 heavy tanks where the tracks are rubber at the moment, but personally I wouldn't buy new tracks for kits where the tracks are already moulded on, like the Emhar Whippet, A7V and the Matador Holt (which i'm still waiting for)

Oscar Zulu · Sergeant

At first I'd say 1/35 for me, but for the most part there's already viable options to upgrade OEM treads. However, I've been toying with the idea of venturing into the 1/72 arena recently where there aren't a lot of options for upgrades.

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Scratch building track down to 1/72 gives all sort of problems. The scale thichness of the track plates�would be approx. 0.005"/�0.12mm thick, how thick's a coke can? confuse

�Lithoplate?
�
As I get older I have to build larger wink

I've drawn side views of lengths of track at popular scales for reference.
The wps file prints bang on size on my printer, I've done a jpg as well.

A top and underside version will follow soonish.

Happy New Year

Oscar Zulu · Sergeant

Eeek! I can see where braille scale would present issues!

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

here's the top view of the track in xps, jpg to follow.

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Jpgs

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Lincoln,
excellent idea, a track topic! My vote would be 1/6 or 1/4.
referring to the toblerones: the ends can be finished by annealing the metal and form them with a ball pin hammer, an a mallet. But that's probably no news for you.
Main problem is the distance between the pin opening and the track plate. If that's too small, the track does'nt "close". Too wide and there is gap, when the track runs over the horns of the rhomboid.
Fibre glass(or other plastics) I wonder if that's strong enough for a running model in bigger scale?

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Keiffer,
your very right about the importance of the pin position and the track plate, in fact it all has to be accurately positioned or all sorts of problems arise. I'd use press tools to form the plates, the thought of hammering 160 or so�plates to shape is disbelief

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Lincoln

...and the noise like a metal woodpecker drives the neighbours crazy..
What kind of press would you use, something like a garage hydraulic press? I guess you need quite some force. And probably you still have to anneal the plates, even aluminium because that has the tendency to crack.

Kieffer

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Kieffer,

I don't know the tonnage of the press used for�the 1/4 scale press tools, all I know�is it was an industrial press.�The steel wasn't anealed.� If the tank is a runner I�wouldn't use aluminium, the steel ones rust nicely, look real and will last longer.

Your talking of 1/4 or 1/6 the nearest plate thickness would be 2.5 and 1.5mm so there would be some weight in steel.�

Here's the weights for 180 plates:-

Steel 1/4 scale 2.5 thk 30kg
�� 1/6 scale 1.5 thk 8kg

Aluminium�� 2.5 thk 10.7kg
��1.5�thk� 2.7kg

Then there's the weight of the links.
��

MK1 Nut · Hero

Hi Chris�

I think I would have to agree with you on the use of steel over aluminium. Although the weight goes up the time to make each plate would be the same, so increased wear has to be worth the extra strain on the drive gear.

Thanks for listing the weights, it's very useful to see how even a small change in plate thickness can make such a difference in the all up weight.

Helen

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Lincoln,
...and there's the weight of the body, driving gear etc. I guess the motor will be the electric wheel chair type then, they can handle some 70 kg or more, but that's for later.
Sometimes I read: "track centres", their size 7ft. The width of the real track plate is 20.5 inch (52.07 cm) am I right?
It's a translation thing, what is meant with centres? And is there anything known about the size of the toblerones?

Hi Helen, I agree too with the steel over aluminium theme. It looks though that one has to give things out of hand and has to visit the steel plant. Bitter for the modeller's heart and may be for the bank account too, but it's time saving. And investing in a hydraulic press, which needs provisions, and a heavier shear to cut the plates...

Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

MK1 Nut wrote:

Hi Everyone

Has anyone ever thought of using a stamp and die to make the track plates in thin plastic or brass, and moulding the links in resin?

I just think it would give a nicer look in 1/32 scale for example.

Helen
Hi Helen, yes I do! The, I presume well known Evergreen sheets etc are nice to work with. Brass is a fine material too. And I can't let it...annealing the stuff just with a (small) blow torch till it starts colouring light orange, let it cool by itself and punching, folding etc. is a piece of cake.
Kieffer

�

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Kieffer,� the 7ft centres is the distance between the centres�of each set of tracks. Also the track pitch is 7.5" which is the distance between the pins on the track link.

I believe all MarkI to MarkIV and Whippets�had 20.5" wide tracks, the MarkV had 20.5" and 25.5" ( Dick Harley's drawing seems to state 26.5") could someone confirm this? Dick's drawing also states Little Willies track was 20" wide.

The plate thickness is 3/8" on the drawing, I have measured 10mm+ on actual plate.

The Whippet track plate thickness was reduced (to 8mm?) nodoubt due to the higher speed and less weight of the tank.

The drawings I have posted of the track plates are taken from an original factory drawing and from measuring a track unit so they are quite accurate.

I shall post new drawings for the track link, as when I traced over the original drawing I hadn't realised the drawing had stretched so it's drawn 2mm too high on full-size.

-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Wednesday 6th of January 2010 11:19:39 AM

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi, here's jpg drawings of the tracks.

Does anyone have drawings, photos, of a single FT-17 track unit? It would be good to nail that one down as well.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Chris,
thank you! This is very helpfull, nice drawings too.

Kieffer

First Circle · Private

Hello, this is the first time I've been here, and this thread has made me feel quite strange... I have been building Airfix's Mk 1 and have got to point where having done so much work on it, I now can't face attaching the rubber tracks.� So I started thinking about how to get around it, now this thread practically represents my own thought patterns and even more worryingly over almost exactly the same time frame!�

I tried scratching them, but it's hard to get them consistent.� I tried making the ridge by embossing the thin styrene over a 0.4mm drill bit, pressing it down with an improvised tool of two square nuts bolted together with a small gap.� I made several that looked quite good, but have been baulking at making the other 175 of them...

plastic link

I thought about die stamping, itseems like a good idea, but I don't know anything about getting those made, and not sure how good a 3D impression can be made or whether it would basically be pressed sheet.

So I went a bit overboard and have been considering having them injection moulded (with the all the advantages that would have).� That of course has big implications in terms of trying to recoup the cost.� I'm hoping that the six or so people in the world that might share my current obsession might have some wise words for me on that, like "what a great idea, you should do it" or "have you totally lost it??"

As a means to that end, I wouldn't want to have to shell out for CAD work as well so have been trying to learn 3D modelling (using free trials of course) and I have to say that the photo of the aluminium link and the profile drawing posted by LincolnTanker just struck me as uncanny.� Here are a couple of views of what I did last night, before I ever saw this message board; I haven't been concerned with dimensions yet, just with learning how to draw the shapes:

front view

Forgive me if my images go wrong, as I said, this is my first on this site.

-- Edited by First Circle on Wednesday 13th of January 2010 12:10:20 AM

-- Edited by First Circle on Wednesday 13th of January 2010 12:13:59 AM

-- Edited by First Circle on Wednesday 13th of January 2010 12:43:58 AM

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Matt,

injection moulding would be remarkably expensive, the cost of the moulds alone would be terrible.

The 2nd view looks good, but the profile is triangular, not round.

1/76 is a bit small for me, but if I was going to make track for that scale and a press tool wasn't possible�I'd make a master and take molds off it and cast them.
One problem could be the scale thickness of the plate, 0.13mm/0.005", a thicker plate would have to be cast and the edges chamfered to give the impression of a thinner thickness.

Vac forming could be another way.

Google DIY vacforming and resin casting.

Just been thinking, if you used litho plate you could cut it with a stanley knife. A simple press tool using mdf board, maybe, and a 0.9/1.0 dia drill bit to form the black part of my drawing. The red�tobelerone could be cast and cynoed into position.
Then there's the rivets.

This maybe a way of producing track for larger scales.

Hope this has been some help,

Rob · Legend

If anyone needs photographs of track sections, let me know - i'm in London a lot and usually end up down at the Imperial War Museum killing an hour or two (in fact i'll probably be there Friday afternoon) so can take photographs of the Mk V track's and trackplate if they'd be of use

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Thanks for the offer Rob, are the tracks the wide version? If so it would be useful to check the width, side view of the rivets as well and general views.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Lincoln!

that's a convincing looking product you are showing here! Can you tell some more?
It looks like a cast, but it isn't of course?

Regards,
Kieffer

First Circle · Private

remarkably expensive, the cost of the moulds alone would be terrible.
Yes, I realise that... oddly enough one of my wife's friends manages an injection moulding company, so I was talking to her about it.� I would need to sell quite a few sets to ever make the money back . . . not sure how on earth one works out the demand for such an item.�

the profile is triangular, not round.
I did have a trip to Bovington lined up for the kids Xmas hols but it was blown out by all the snow, so I have been working from photos only.

scale thickness of the plate, 0.13mm/0.005"
True, I think for 1/76 you don't need to get to exactly scale, it is after all impractical for many of the objects on models of this size.� 0.2 / 0.3 might be feasible and would still be a massive improvement over what currently exists.�

Then there's the rivets.
Yes, this is all starting to sound a bit like almost as much work as scratching them!
Does anyone have any experience / opinion of the Matador resin links?� I must admit the photo of them on their website is a little unclear, which is a bit worrying.

�

Ironsides · Legend

Hi this may help to sort out some of the problems with the airfix tracks, Ive only done this with the 1996 issue but it may work on the new tracks as well...
the trick is to use a leather workers edging tool to thin the edges and remove the flash, a nice new sharp one should work even on softish rubber.... these tracks are soft plastic and also need some material removing from the thicker central section a curved lino cutter may do or any small curved chisel...

Cheers smile

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Ironsides,� the gap between the track and plate looks good as well.

Thanks,

-- Edited by LincolnTanker on Thursday 14th of January 2010 02:42:49 AM

First Circle · Private

Ironsides, that is a definite improvement in that you have avoided that look of a rolled up slice of processed ham and obtained the gap.� I was thinking of this approach, and with the current track material, which is very soft and pliable rubber, I found that the best way of trimming the flash was 1500 grade emery paper.� Normally sanding rubber produces hairy bits, but at this grade, the fluff is easily brushed away by rubbing with your finger.�

I think you still get the unfortunate look of some of the links being curved around the front of the horns though.

On moulding, having, as LT suggested, looked at the options, I suspect vacuum forming is probably good for larger scales, but I'm not sure about for 1/76 due to the sheet thickness.

I will have a go at�casting them and will let you know how I get on.

Sorry, hope I haven't hijacked this thread in any way.

If you are interested, I have been logging my build of the Airfix Mk 1 on Armorama:
My Airfix Mk I on Armorama

Rob · Legend

Hi Matt, don't know if it's too late but I had the same problem with the Airfix sponsons, and I wanted to have the guns tucked into the side at a downward angle as if it was moving to/from the front. I found that 1mm plastic card easily fitted the gap

Rob · Legend

LincolnTanker wrote:

Thanks for the offer Rob, are the tracks the wide version? If so it would be useful to check the width, side view of the rivets as well and general views.

�To be honest I don't know - there's a link to a photograph of it here http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2804/4078527786_a59cbc6c74.jpg�, when I was looking at it on Monday I didn't think the tracks looked like the wide versions i've seen on photographs

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Kieffer, the 1/15th�track plate is machined. I've recently converted a small (Euro-arc X1) mill to CNC. I machined it out of perspex or acrylic, it came out of a scrap bin, to check the look of it before I machine the press dies in steel. It looks better than the track plate I previously posted.

LincolnTanker · Commander in Chief

Hi Matt,� don't worry about hijacking the thread, my knowledge of the subject is prettywell exhausted. bleh

I set this up to help us modellers over the problem of tracks. It's useful to kick ideas about. The more ideas the better.

Vacformed 1/76 track, if one was to cut single track links off the Airfix/Emhar and cut a square out of plastic or whatever, glue the link slightly proud of the surface. Take a cast of it with car body filler so a female mold of the link is produced, drill air holes through the rivet depressions, drill a couple of holes through the gully. Fit a tube to the mould, and it's ready for use.

There's not a lot of work in the above, if I works it should give a good result. I know the problem with thin plasic is it's fast heat loss, but a hot airgun heating the plastic in place may work. It may be found that the plastic thins as it forms so maybe 0.010" would be ok. Cutting out the 160'ish plates would be a test of patience. A number of track plates could be vacform in a length but it would loose some of the effect.