Landships II

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

Aberdeen Proving Ground 'Big Bertha' Mystery Solved?

Great War Truck · Brigadier

i think you could be right. Certainly two of them went to the USA, but i had no idea where the other one ended up. It is quite possible that it ended up at APG, but the question remains that if it did why was it not cut up with the other one in 1942? the wagon is certainly a transport wagon for BB but there does not appear to be any significant parts of BB on it. The bits on the wagon could be accessories for the assembled one. Unless of course you have more photos of the other wagons with more gun parts on them?

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

Yes, there are photos and inventory cards for all five wagons, including the howitzer barrel.

Great War Truck · Brigadier

Sounds like you have it sorted then. Do you have photos of the other wagons?

28juni14 · Hero

An article in "Bore Sight" some years ago carried a 1954 pic of a 5 ton truck dragging the Moeser off Aberdeen�property.� The post CO at the time justified the action as part of the Korean War (1950-53)�Scrap Drive.� In actuality,� he simply wanted to make space(� virtually all WW1 ordnance was gotten rid of at the time; to include the ultra rare Japanese Engineer Flame tank ).�
The Moerser was sold to a scrap dealer who tried unsuccesfully to torch the thing into smaller chunks.�� As the story goes,� after a few months he gave up and it was dumped into the Atlantic.
�� I shared� all this here on the forum�a few years ago.

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

Here is a photo of the barrel wagon.

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

28juni14 wrote:

An article in "Bore Sight" some years ago carried a 1954 pic of a 5 ton truck dragging the Moeser off Aberdeen�property.� The post CO at the time justified the action as part of the Korean War (1950-53)�Scrap Drive.� In actuality,� he simply wanted to make space(� virtually all WW1 ordnance was gotten rid of at the time; to include the ultra rare Japanese Engineer Flame tank ).�
The Moerser was sold to a scrap dealer who tried unsuccesfully to torch the thing into smaller chunks.�� As the story goes,� after a few months he gave up and it was dumped into the Atlantic.
I shared� all this here on the forum�a few years ago.

Do you happen to have a copy of the article?� As a researcher, it is hard to evaluate the veracity of a "story" without being able to evaluate the source.� For example, was the author a first person observer?� Or, someone else?�

Let's imagine this a moment - let's assume, that because of its size, the Big Bertha did not go far - perhaps to a scrap dealer in nearby Havre de Grace or perhaps even Baltimore.� Let's further assume that the scrap dealer was able dispose of everything but the barrel and breech (which weighed around 13 tons).� So then, is it plausible that the scrap dealer would rent a ship (or perhaps a barge) and take the barrel 150 miles or more down the Chesapeake Bay to the Atlantic Ocean and dump it there?� Or would the main channel of the Chesapeake be good enough?� And, how much would that cost?� Of course, this is speculation, but seeing the article would help greatly.� Otherwise - unfortunately -�the "story" remains just that, a story.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

I think these are good questions! All reminds me at the story of the Lionel toy train company. Alledgedly to get rid of some of their casts and dies by throwing them in� what I think it was� the Hudson river. Collectors keep that story alive, though somebody calculated the huge weight and the costs of the 'dumped' left overs, plus the efforts and the hinderance of throwing and dragging tonnes of metal from a railway bridge...

regards, Kieffer

-- Edited by kieffer on Tuesday 8th of February 2011 10:05:11 AM

Peter T · General

Hello Marc

Do you already know this video?

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675042333_scrap_Aberdeen-Proving-Grounds_canon-balls_old-equipment_42-cm-Howitzer

Greetings, Peter

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello Peter,

I have not seen that video.� Thank you very much!�

It is simultaneously fantastic (i.e., a great resource) and horrifying (oh, to see the Big Bertha cut up that way).� After seeing the howitzer's barrel cut by the acetylene torch, one has to wonder about the story of the scrap dealer some ten years later, in the 1950s, not being able to cut up the howitzer into smaller chunks.� ��

Thanks again for the link!

Regards,
Marc

Peter T · General

Hi Marc

In this footage you can also see one of the two(?) barrel wagons just behind that 15cm Feldkanone i.R. cut in pieces by the acetylene torch.
So it is relally a little bit confusing seeing that tube in the scrap hall in 1943 ...
(Or I didn't catch the whole story?)

Cheers, Peter

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hi Peter,

Good eye.� That certainly does look like a Big Bertha barrel wagon.� Therefore, it is right to conclude that two Big Berthas were at APG.� Maybe the barrel wagon just missed the cutting torch in 1943.

Regards, Marc

Roger Todd · Legend

To go with the wonderful photos (top of thread) Marc posted of the Big Bertha at Aberdeen is this one from this Russian webpage. Clearly the top of the barrel has been retouched (probably it faded too much into the sky in the original) but otherwise it appears genuine and is dated November/December 1928. I wonder what photos there are in Aberdeen's archives? I've seen a few in books and magazines but there must surely be more...

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

A friend recently copied this photo at NARA of two 'Big Bertha' barrels in the museum storage building at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. The photo is dated 1921. It is further proof that the AEF brought home two of the guns.

Regards,

Marc

CharlieC · Legend

That's an interesting image. Aside from the M-Gerät barrels and receiver assembly further down the line of vehicles is a Mark I SPG with

8inch howitzer then two Mark II SPGs with 155mm GPF guns. The next two could be Mark IIs - there were 8 produced at the end of WW1.

I'm much less certain about the vehicles further down the line of exhibits.

Regards,

Charlie

Edit: I think the vehicles beyond the Mark II SPGs may be the Mark IVA (copy of Saint-Chamond tractor) and Mark IV (Saint-Chamond copy with 240mm

howitzer).

-- Edited by CharlieC on Saturday 17th of September 2016 09:54:46 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Sunday 18th of September 2016 03:07:56 AM

biercemountain · Sergeant

It's such a monumental shame that they scrapped this important piece of history.

Paul

Dresden · Sergeant

Scrap

Dresden · Sergeant

Scrap

Dresden · Sergeant

Scrap was needed by the US like Iowa needed corn, The military mind only considers destruction as an only option.

alfisherjr · Colonel

Definitely needed for scrap. For those of you who're too young to remember WWII, anything that could be recycled for the war effort was . . . scrap metal, paper, cooking fat in tin cans (thank you ladies for bringing in your fat cans!) , aluminum foil . . . you name it, we saved it. As a boy scout, I spent many a day in the back of a town truck collecting such items . . . man, it was cold in winter after a few hours.

Bosun Al

Haverba · Sergeant

Very interesting information.

On a side note, Verdun is mentioned and especially that the capture or exchange took place at Bois de Spincourt, a forest to the east of Verdun.

Criticalpast site ( searched on 42cm).

www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039632_42-cm-guns_United-States-ordnance-personnel_guns-carried-to-Beaune_flatcars_caterpillar-trucks

U.S. Army holt tractors are hooked up to large wheeled trailers loaded with parts of German 42cm "Big Bertha" howitzers, captured by American Expeditionary forces (AEF) near end of World War 1. Camera pans along the line of tractors. Closeup profile of a Holt tractor with several Army mechanics working around it. Camera pans along tractors and Big Bertha carriers and parts. Camera focuses into rifled barrel of one of the howitzers. Several U.S. soldiers are seen waving to the camera, through the barrel. Several American soldiers climb upon a carrier holding one of the 42cm barrels. One soldier crawls through the barrel. Two soldiers display a 42cm shell casing for the camera. Writing on one of the captured German vehicles reads: "Ersatzbremsflussigkeit (Perglyzerin)" describing substitute brake fluid. The convoy of tractors, led by a staff car and accompanied by soldiers on motorcycles, proceed along the road to Beaune

However the only Beaune I could trace lies under Dyon??

Harry

MLW · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello Harry,

Thanks for posting the link!

Beaune is a famous wine town in Burgundy. Of course, 'proceeding along the road to Beaune' does not mean the captured guns actually went to Beaune. They likely went to a railhead somewhere in the direction of Beaune.

There are quite a few photos at NARA of the two guns in American hands at Spincourt. They are certainly the same guns in the video from Critical Past.

Regards,
Marc