Landships II

Hi,

Maybe this can help You:

http://landships.activeboard.com/t42770089/strange-helmets-and-creeping-tank/

"Ironsides" has send me the link May 10th last year, great book

DJ

I'm finding the whole thing rather confusing, because the Reseda and Detaille seem to have existed side by side.I've also read somewhere that one or the other of them was made of aluminium.

But somewhere I've got a pic of a cavalry helmet that explains what I think is confusing you. Or partly. Bear with me.

Except that strange cavalry helmet with adrian crest. Are these all different models of experimental french helmets

1st- resada?

2nd- normal detaille

3rd- steel detaille

4th- similar to the leather helmet but brown

top one shows prewar leather artillery helmets

I'm finding this a bit of a puzzle. Have found a lot of pics of the "Boer", Detaille, and Reseda, and can't fathom out the chronology. Will continue to ponder. I suspect the answer lies in that very expensive book.

In the meantime, though, I think this relates to H33's original enquiry. Am I right in thinking that the PDF is from Andre Joineau's book on the French Army 1915-18? I've only got the 1914 one, which shows the Artillery helmet as black, not brass, and describes it as polished steel.

Anyay, it seems that, at first, the cavalry used adaptations of the pre-War helmets. Then, before the Adrian, there were some attempts to introduce a type of helmet similarly based on the Fire Brigade type. The picture below appeared in the "name-that-piece-of-equipment" section of Militaria magazine. Luckily, I happen also to the issue in which someone came up with the answer. It's described as:

"Cavalry helmet M15, based on the 1874 helmet. This is the Officers' version; more careful design, especially (I can't translate this exactly - les attentes: possibly the points of attachment) of the chinstrap, which were inverted compared to the Other Ranks helmet. It was the last version of the cavalry helmet before the adoption of the Adrian."

Are we getting closer?

"I've only got the 1914 one, which shows the Artillery helmet as black, not brass, and describes it as polished steel."

Hi James the description is quite possible a workshop handbook I have "Gilding silvering and Bronzing"  B.E.Jones Editor 1st edition 1918 describes half a dozen methods for blacking steel to a deep durable black, rust resistant and high polish finish, but the longevity of the finish depends on the method... also describes the method for almost any colour you like on almost any metal...

Its possible the steel helmet in the photo I linked too has lost its original finish...

Cheers

Hi James heres a few links from "Le Petit Journal" may be interesting, I have'nt searched through the whole lot so there may be more... worthwhile looking though some lovely illustrations..

"Le Petit Journal"

http://cent.ans.free.fr/menu.htm

new helmet for the artillery 1902

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1902/pj59116031902.jpg

New uniform proposal 1903

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1903/pj64101031903.htm

New uniform proposal 1911

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1911/pj106623041911b.htm

new uniform proposal 1912

http://cent.ans.free.fr/pj1912/pj111210031912b.htm

I dont claim its cronologically correct though more sources would be needed for that..

The brass crest  and plate on the Reseda helmet appears to be removable for campaign.. perhaps some of the others are as well?

Cheers

Hi James I seem to recall seeing a large plate for Balkan War uniforms but didnt look that closely....

Heres another link I came across re the artillery helmet it says 1912 but I think this may be the Reseda version from 1911 as it doesnt have the square peek, plus a very Reseda looking top knob.. it may have been re-finished...

http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t46583-casque-d-essai-mod-1912-d-artillerie

Cheers

I think I'm getting somewhere. It seems that an artillery helmet was trialled as early as 1902, and the idea persisted through the various experimental uniforms between then and the outbreak. André Joineau's illustration of the 1914 artillery shows what he describes as "the latest model", and I've seen it described somewhere as "the second type". So I think the first picture below shows (l-r): first artillery type; second (Detaille) artillery type; Detaille infantry type (distinguished by the square peak). Unhelpfully, as far as I can tell, the Detaille infantry helmet seems to have been leather, not steel.

The second picture would now seem to be of the Detaille/Scott uniforme, which had dark blue tunics for Parade Order and bleu cendré (ashy-blue) tunics, greatcoats, and kepis for Campaign Order.

Can't help but feel that the brass finish in the Osprey book might be a mistake

Now, in 1912 new chrome (I think) helmets were introduced for the Hussars and Chasseurs à Cheval, similar to the Cuirasier and Dragoon types but with a lower crest. Can't be sure how widely they were worn; Funcken shows both regiments wearing a mix of helmets and shakos. There had been earlier types, as seen 2/3 of the way down here, but I can't make out what they were made of or where they fitted into the scheme of things.

The Reseda is at least as confusing. It seems that the helmet came in three versions; one with a crest like the Detaille, one (presumably Campaign Order) with no accoutrements, and the detachable plate thing that Ironsides pointed out. They're here.

Please feel free to correct any misapprehensions. Life is made more difficult by the fact that in black and white photos it's hard work to distinguish one outfit from another, but comparing colour illustrations gives a clue.

Blood and sand. This will require some study. I thank you.

More layers than an onion, this one, but I think I'm beginning to grasp it.

Now; can anyone explain this?

Ironsides wrote:

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any idea of the name in the text?

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 It looks as if it could be Monsieur Ferdinandes, after a sketch by Monsieur Dick.