Landships II

Guido · Lieutenant

new (?) A7V-photos

TinCanTadpole · Legend

Fantastische! (hope that's right, I don't speak German)

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

Lovely, the U-Waggen photo's appeared before, the others probably have, but "Elfriede" was the first A7V lost at Villers-Brettoneux, the one with the Lion, is our old friend & survivor "Mephisto"

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

None of them is really new. A copy of the �berlandwagen '521' picture was traded on Ebay recently, but otherwise should be unpublished yet.

The picture of '542 Elfriede' has been poorly touched up. The original shows three French soldiers, one standing front right (arm still visible), one standing front left (more neatly removed), and one peeking out of the starboard turret side hatch (leaving a black hole). Picture taken during 542's evaluation on a French training ground.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Well, and the picture of '506 Mephisto' obviously is mirror-inverted.

Bunzli · Private

Fantastisch indeed. I just logged into the site to ask the question - were there German tanks at the Battle of Moreuil Wood 30/31 March 1918?

My Grandfather, with 2nd Middlesex Regiment, had an encounter with a German tank when wounded and captured and my research says it could only have been one of two actions, Moreuil or Villers Bretonneux 23/24 April.

Picture 3 is the first reference I have seen anywhere to link Moreuil and tanks. The photo is from a later date, though, as it is Mephisto captured at Villers Bretonneux and has been painted with the lion.

I doubt there were A7Vs at Moreuil on 31 March, as all references I can find say they were only used North of St Quentin Canal on 21 March and at Villers B in this period.

Does anyone know whether there were captured British tanks, Beutepanzer mark IV perhaps, around 31 March at Moreuil?
There was fierce fighting here with the wood changing hands many times over several days.
An answer could help solve a long-standing family mystery!

Ian Armstrong · Sergeant

The image showing U521 is quite interesting showing an Uberlandwagen in motion. Is there any footage of one actually in motion? There are a few seconds of an A7V wobbling along but none of it's cargo sister as I have yet found.

Albert · Brigadier

Bunzli wrote:
Fantastisch indeed. I just logged into the site to ask the question - were there German tanks at the Battle of Moreuil Wood 30/31 March 1918?

My Grandfather, with 2nd Middlesex Regiment, had an encounter with a German tank when wounded and captured and my research says it could only have been one of two actions, Moreuil or Villers Bretonneux 23/24 April.

Picture 3 is the first reference I have seen anywhere to link Moreuil and tanks. The photo is from a later date, though, as it is Mephisto captured at Villers Bretonneux and has been painted with the lion.

I doubt there were A7Vs at Moreuil on 31 March, as all references I can find say they were only used North of St Quentin Canal on 21 March and at Villers B in this period.

Does anyone know whether there were captured British tanks, Beutepanzer mark IV perhaps, around 31 March at Moreuil?
There was fierce fighting here with the wood changing hands many times over several days.
An answer could help solve a long-standing family mystery!

�

There was certainly no German tank action between 21th March�and�24th April.

Tanker · Field Marshal

Bonjour,

About tanks near Moreuil, it was, perhaps, British tanks fighting with French Division Marocaine.

See on 4� Tirailleurs JMO from SHD Vincennes n� 26N848-1 (on website "M�moires des Hommes").

Pages 145 to 155, a plan, some maps, orders�and a�photo from Hangard wood, about this attack with British tanks between Bois de Flers and bois de Hangard.

All JMO (Journal de Marche et Op�rations) from these�French units�are on internet.

Division Marocaine :

��Division� : JMO n� 26N463-17 pages 12 and 13

�� RMLE (R�giment de Marche de la L�gion Etrang�re) :�JMO 26N862-09 pages 91 to 95.�

�� 4� Tirailleurs : JMO n� 26N848-01 pages 145 to 155

��8��Zouaves : JMO n� 26N842-04 pages 145 to 155

Hangard Wood was the limit between French and British Army, and this wood was held, on March 27 th,�by a "Bristish second Batallion" (French ID JMO page 12)

The 4 Mark tanks attack was done with the L�gion Regiment.

�

About Elfriede, the photo was done on the rifle range between Fontainebleau and Bourron.

Bourron was, since June 1918, a tank's camp from the Artillery Sp�ciale, instead of Champlieu,�and Elfriede was sent there, from Saleux to Bourron, for technical tests on its armor.

�

Bonne lecture. Michel

-- Edited by Tanker on Friday 26th of April 2013 09:16:43 AM

Bunzli · Private

Thank you Albert.

James H · Legend

Acc to Jones, Rarey, & Icks, the action at Moreuil was on July 23rd, 1918, when 35 Mk Vs of 9 Bn supported the 3rd French Infantry Division. There were further tank actions around Moreuil, as part of 2nd Arras, on September 2nd. In the absence of any German tank activity and of mention of Moreuil in connection with 2nd Middx, it looks as if it was Villers-Bretonneux. VB is mentioned in the battle honours, and there's a discussion here.

Hope this helps.

Bunzli · Private

Thanks for the link James.

The 2nd Mddx awas definitely at�Moreuil 31 March, where the initial German advance was stopped. The battalion is not often mentioned in connection with Moreuil as it had 75% casualties on 25 March defending Eterpiny and Brie Bridge and lost more at Rosieres while retreating, and so was just a remnant force. A reformed company was cut off in Moreuil Wood and lost on 31 March. The battalion was restocked and deployed to VB by 23 April.

However if there were no German tanks at Moreuil it seems I'm left with VB.

The 2ndMddx were responsible for the ground directly in front of VB on the night of 23 April, from the Roman Road north to the railway south.

They are seldom identified in books or on the net, overshadowed by the Australian recapture of the village that night and the first tank to tank action.

�

The Mddx War Diary material may be of interest to the forum as it is a description of the start of the VB German tank action, prior to the more famous tank vs tank action later in the day. It includes a description of the action by the CO and handwritten reports from junior officers, all referring to how the tanks were used in this action. If people are interested I can post select transcripts that are very interesting tanks being used to enfilade trenches, or collapse trenches and other tactics.

�

As an example, the following is a direct transcript of accompanying handwritten Notes on Report on Operations 24th to 27th April 1918 (it includes an internal quote which makes it slightly confusing):

�

Start quote

1.Summary of casualties [Total: Officers 14, Other Ranks 530]

2. Employment of German Tanks

Extract from III Corps Intelligence Summary Part 2 of 29th April 1918 ~

In the attack on VillersBretonneux on the 24th April the enemy was considerably assisted by his tanks The tanks apparently followed the infantry and came into action if the later could make no progress, otherwise there was no co-operation with the Infantry."

�

The above would confirm the account of survivors, that the front line companies engaged and broke up the attacks of the hostile infantry before being overwhelmed by the enemy tanks.��

end quote

�

Bunzli · Private

Is this an (admittedly second-hand) account of the second ever German use of A7V Tanks?

�

"War Diary Secret Appendix I

� Second Battalion D.C.O (Middlesex Regiment)

� Report on Operations - 24th April 1918

During the night 23rd/24th April 1918 , the 2nd Middlesex Regt relieving the 2nd Northampton Regt and was disposed as shown in the accompanying sketch.

B, A and D Companies were in the front line (from right to left), C Company was in support. Battalion H.Q.s was at 0.35.7.L

Major C.D. Drew was in command.

The relief was uneventful, and the early part of the night was quiet, except that owing to expected enemy attack our artillery carried out harrassing and and counter preparation fire.

All Companies were warned of expected attack.

The Commanding Officer visited the front and support lines and found all alert and working on their appointed tasks.

At 3/-45 a.m. the enemy put down an intense artillery, T.M. and Lachrymatory gas barrage on the whole area.

This barrage caused considerable casualties in the front line and and continued for about 2 hours, when it lifted from the front line but continued undiminished in rear.

Owing to every Officer and man of A and C Companies becoming casualties, the events in the centre of the line was not known but from survivors of the flank Companies the following appears to have happened.

On the right immediately the barrage lifted, two enemy Tanks approached our line, firing their machine guns. Owing to the liberal use of smoke shells, they could not be seen until they were about 30 yards from the trench. They got into position to enfilade the trench, causing further heavy casualties. They were followed by another Tank and infantry with flammenwerfer.

Rifle fire was opened but could not stop the Tanks. The first two passed over the front line, and the third also, but on being fire (sic) on from from the support trench turned towards it and passed right over it, causing many casualties.

Captain Brodie, commanding B Company, ordered the remnants of the support Platoon into the Railway Cutting to avoid the Tanks. The Cutting was heavily shelled and more casualties caused. CaptBrodie with about 7 men, the sole remnant of his Company, made their way under heavy fire through the village to Battalion H.Q.�

Meanwhile on the extreme left, No.15 Platoon, just South of the main Amiens-Warfusee road, suffered heavily from the enemy barrage. The enemy infantry were first seen only 20 yards to thje right of the trench owing to the smoke. Fire was opened at once and the enemy turned towards the trench headed by 8 men with flemmenwerfer. The later were all shot, but were followed by a large number of enemy.

This Platoon was reduced to 2/Lieut Martin and 5 O.R. and formed to face the enemy . . ."

�

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Looks like Tank Group I made up from Abteilung 1 tanks: Wagen 526 (Oberleutnant Skopnik), Wagen 527 'Lotti' (Leutnant Vietze) and Wagen 560 (Leutnant Volckheim).

Pzkpfw-e · Commander in Chief

Not seen this one before.

Description: A badly damaged German A7V tank that took part in the tank v tank battle at Villers-Bretonneux, 24 April 1918 P01726.002 Australian War Memorial

http://www.cwgc.org/spring1918/imagelibrary/imageView.asp?imageid=167&start=64