Landships II

I suppose they must have produced chassis in various lengths - I think this is the case with Macks too. Dimensions may have been changed periodically according to the needs for particular types of vehicle - how large a payload was desired.

OMG - Look what I've just found burried away in my collection, filed amongst USA vehicles. (Not for reproduction - please!)

It is, of course, a pair of CommerCars. Very similar to the RSPCA horse box but with minor differences - no chain case, a visably smaller rear vent (perhaps lower overall?) and slight differences in the cab shape and window positioning. A good view of the winding mechanism though!

-- Edited by Runflat on Thursday 28th of June 2012 08:38:00 PM

Too true... Maybe the chassis braces, as the chain covers were refinements that suffered in the harsh frontline conditions... the braces hung low under the chassis and perhaps the loads in these trucks weren't so heavy as -perhaps- other types of cargo, like supplies, ammo and such, that's perhaps smaller in mass but also weighs much more than a couple of horses.
Maybe I'm wrong, but these chassis braces must have the purpose of reinforcing the chassis beams longitudinally, and also to protect the exhaust pipe and the bulky gearbox from uneven roads.
About the brake rod ending short of the brake drum.... what a mystery... seems against logic to add a system of auxiliary levers to reach the brake shoes!

Here I made a few notes over the "American" Commer photo, marking the visble brake rods in blue, and the direction of "pull" of the lever on the long segment. Now, what could possibly happen where the rods end?

-- Edited by d_fernetti on Wednesday 4th of July 2012 06:56:58 PM

Thanks for the image! It shows yet another configuration and another operator of the lorries.... British, Americans and... Aussies! I wouldn't be surprised to see a picture of French veterinarians using it soon.

This phot, even if grainy, shows new features:

• A certain census number and unit insignia (wonder if they also painted the crimson surround on the side or if they just used the white triangle).
• It's an "early" style model, with cast spoked wheels and wooden side panels on the cab.
•  This cab and body seem to be very alike to the American (with slight differences). No chain drive covers, these were made of aluminium, and perhaps the operators discraded them after some rough maintenance. The cab roof has a straight bottom edge front panel as well, unlike previous (British) pictures. The slatted front varies a bit, though: the Aussie ambulance has three slatted panels at front, two wide offside, and a narrow one nearside. The Yankees got 3 slatted panels as well, but with two narrow ones at each side surrounding a wide one at centre.
• The Aussie ambulance seems a bit worn (note the broken slat at the rear) but is consistent with the looks of the entry ramp of all horse ambulances. This picture also shows -for the first time!) the extent of the folding area of the seat, and traces of the fuel tank under the front seating.
• The folding supports under the ramp middle hinges look a  bit more complex and robust than in previous images (that IWM footage still is the best source on how they operated)

The study continues!!!!!

D.

 

Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons, do you think (judging by the photos we've seen so far) that this type of Commer chassis might feature brakes that act on the transmission, rather than on the rear wheels? I have my doubts, but certainly transmission brakes have been used by some designs (Model T, perhaps?).

As for the chassis braces, somebody did say in an earlier post that they were to stiffen the chassis longitudinally; placed where they are, the braces would be under tension, resisting the bending moment created by loads. Funnily enough, steel is not necessarily the best material to use for such a job; I remember being told in a Materials Science class that wood is four or five times as strong as steel when placed under tension!

My thinking on the absence of braces is not that they suffered under frontline conditions, but that they were never fitted in the first place - I suspect it's a matter of how long the wheelbase is on a particular chassis, and the load it was designed to take.

I think this is what you want, D: the first item on the list, the knuckle joint

Not sure what the writing behind the firewall says, it's very small; there is a lot of similarity to the Commer chassis, although it doesn't have the curved-down front ends to the chassis rails.

The writing will say Commer Car Luton.

Some of the pictures are mislabelled, or miscatalogued... nevertheless they have a most interesting collection there!
Been doing some sketches as well, just to put the different elements "hanging" from the chassis frame in order.
The things are, from front to end:

Radiator > Engine > Flywheel >> engine transmission shaft and clutch shaft (paralell) > Gearbox > Cushion coupling (is this the exact term?) > Differential gearbox with countershaft.

Would this be correct? I think I could see most of these things exposed on the various ambulance pictures. What seems to differ from the 6 tonner is the positioning of the exhaust silencer, which in these diagrams seems to be placed transversal to the longitudinal axis (!) while on the ambulances or other lorries seem to be along the first third of the exhaust pipe close to the nearside of the chassis.
D.
PD: Note taken on "apt"!

I've seen the term "cushion coupling" on the description of the Commer RC chassis report, elsewhere in the net. It's a joint made up of a "cup" butting against a "disc" or "flywheel" with seemingly a soft rubber contact area. A sort of friction clutch, I suppose.
I've seen those cardan shafts on a restoration of a Dennis lorry. Interesting, wonder how much of the coupling would be visible of if it'll be obscured by some cover on the CommerCar lorry.
Speaking of getting a good view... here's a picture that would have been very valuable for this drawing project, if it wasn´t for the men standing just in front of the truck!!!!

Great photo - the gorblimey caps and austerity tunics make me say 1915 or 1916. The centre standing chap, apart from the hat, is in civilian clothing, and even the hat looks to have a smooth leather brim which wasn't in use at the time, but still has an ASC badge. Chap on his right appears to have a pocket watch and the two on the lorry 'bed' have their lower pocket buttons undone!

Regarding the clobber worn by the man in civvies, there's an article in the July 2012 issue of Military Machines International (by Tim Gosling, whom I believe is a fellow Landshipper) about driver training during WW1. The clothing is explained to be the uniform of the London General Omnibus Corporation; these chaps were apparently bus drivers recruited to act as instructors, and the article says they wore ASC badges on their caps.

Yesterday I got in my mailbox the a 1987 issue of "The Vintage Commercial Vehicle Magazine" (what an inspired title!) that I got for a reasonable price on Ebay (there was a Commer Car PS2 Chassis manual on auction as well, but at 42 quids starting price it was too rich for my blood). This magazine has a good article on Commer Car Co. history, however, to my dismay, no photos of WW1 or earlier vintage Commers. Anyway, the article stated a few interesting facts:

• 2,303 Commer vehicles were in military service at the end of the Great War.
• Many parts and subassemblies were made in the USA, and they had a branch in USA where they built and manufactured their own.
• The first petrol-engined vehicle used in our Patagonian wool farms were iron rimmed 5tonner Commer cars

When I started researching these vehicles for the Horse Ambulance, I found on the internet quite a few period pictures of Commers used by the military, even when I didn't even knew the brand before this project. The style of the bodies for the Horse ambulance varied to each manufacturer, as the styles of drop side cargo lorries, and there's even a Telegraphic Mobile post out there (recognizable as a Commer Car vehicle by the characteritic chain drive covers on the rear double wheels).
Why it would be that their use isn't so known as other British brands, like AEC, FWD, Rolls-Royce or Thornycroft? Maybe they weren't "subsidized"? (the article on my mag doesn't mention it).

Anyway, I guess that a drawing of the RC chassis would become useful for a variety of projects, from supplies truck to "human" ambulances to communications mobile centres. There were also a few wheel styles to be used, from wooden spoked artillery heels, cast iron 6-spoked, and "disc" steel pressings.

I'm wondering how difficult would be to do my own PE plates for the lettering on the radiator cover and some other cast letterings all over the model. Anyway, if I consider to make the model in 1/72, there's little to show on most of them, except perhaps the COMMERCAR brand on the radiator.

PS: BTW, on the mag there's also an article on AEC during the Great War and a photo of the elusive "Berna" truck in Switzerland as mentioned in http://www.landships.freeservers.com/ww1transport_vulcan_et_al.htm , but it's a postwar development and not at all like the plan.

You were looking for some info re the Commer RC. You may find the attached useful. First 3 in this post. Rod

Any idea to what scale are the plans???

I am finding this thread facinating. As I am bringing out cavalry horses etc.This could be an ideal kit.

-- Edited by baldwin on Sunday 29th of July 2012 04:14:25 PM

Well, as this last drawing has the measurements noted, you can bring them to your preferred scale with the aid of Photoshop and a decent printer! Note that this one had the wooden spoked wheels, and not the later (?) metallic spoked or disc variants. The chain drive covers are not drawn here, and I detect some variation regarding the fixture holding the drive axle to the chassis sides. I guess it's not too different from the wartime ambulance chassis, and the differences are mostly related to shape detail, and not function.

-- Edited by d_fernetti on Monday 30th of July 2012 02:43:25 PM

Very interesting posts, BSM - in particular the description of the mechanicals; this should help a lot in sorting out the confusion over brake linkages!

Got a couple of images of a 1908 Commer used by the North Eastern Railway if those are any use?

Not that I can tell, nice view of the chain to the rear wheels on one view, interesting photos though - private message me your e-mail and i'll send them through in minutes

WoW! Thanks, Rod!