Landships II

CharlieC · Legend

Obusier 220mm Schneider TR Mle 1916 Survivor

silent knight · Corporal

It is located at the "Mus�e de l'artillerie" in the city of Draguignan (France)

http://minitracks.forumpersos.com/ [...] draguignan

Pascal

CharlieC · Legend

�

Thank you very much

Regards,

Charlie

Barbanente · Major

Hi

There is another survivor Mortier 220mm Schneider TR in Argentina.

It is located in the gardens of the Colegio Militar de la Nación.

Prof. German Carrillo Noble gave me some great pictures of this "monster" and authorized me to show them.

As you can see is a Mle1915, and is identified by its wheels with steel rim and only 12 wheel spokes (according to what is indicated in the note “Mortier de 220mm TR modèles 1915 et 1916 Schneider” by Charlie Clelland, - Landships II.)

On the same page it explains that in 1928 was added a muzzle brake as you see in these pictures and corresponds to the date of delivery of the mortar to Argentina

In the engraving can be read Mro / 22 L.10,35.SCHNEIDER Modelo Argentino 1928. Nº1

By the date be deduced that was part the contract of the Argentine Government with the Schneider factory for family of weapons, from a 75mm mountain gun, until guns and howitzers of 105 and 155mm.

Was said to be part of the weapons delivered as a sample, since it is one of the Schneider that was not modified and updated, as they did with to the rest of the delivered.

Is placed on a portable platform that is located under the wheels so that it is not bury to shoot it, and ahead the shield has a jigger of service

This mortar also not appeared in the two middle pages of the book mentioned by a disoriented forum user.

Until 1959 appears in the lists of material in service in the Argentine Army

Regards

Eduardo

CharlieC · Legend

Thank you - may I use the images in an update to the article on Landships II please?

The circular platform is more likely to enable easy traverse of the howitzer.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Sunday 4th of September 2016 11:00:10 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 5th of September 2016 12:01:50 AM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 5th of September 2016 12:02:13 AM

Barbanente · Major

Hi

For me, there is no problem in using the pictures, and there is no problem by Professor Carrillo Noble, so they are at your disposal.

Indeed, the platform was used for correcting angle to direction. But it was not a conventional platform because in the center has a window that allows to the recoil guide of the barrel reaches an almost vertical position.

http://claude.larronde.pagesperso-orange.fr/A-DossierSite-2/Pagedidier.html

Something like this, but from steel and not handmade

Regards

Eduardo

Barbanente · Major

Hi

Looking at the photos I have, could describe this platform as a horseshoe whose diameter is smaller than the distance between the wheels, ie when the mortar pointing, the wheels move outside the platform

It is likely that a part is missing because now the mortar is not linked to the platform in any way (which would prevent transmitting the recoil at the ground, and than would totally useless)

Since in this form, is not used for to aim or to help disperse the load at the time of shooting

It is likely that large corrections in direction are made in a similar way to the "Dicke Berta" M-Gerät 42, ie moving the box carriage from behind to turn the mortar, so a wheel rotates forward and the other backward

Remember a howitzer or mortar which uses a similar system ???

Regards

Eduardo

CharlieC · Legend

The classic artillery piece with a traverse turntable was the British 25 Pounder of WW2.

The variable recoil of the 25 Pounder meant the breech never reached the turntable even at maximum elevation.

I guess the Panama mount used for the US-built 155mm GPF guns is a similar idea.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Saturday 10th of September 2016 03:05:42 AM

Barbanente · Major

Hi

In this case its shape, and possibly how to use it are very different.

In the picture you see the platform has the shape of a U. (there may be something buried?)

The yellow arrow points to the large window in the center. The red arrow indicates where the plate ends up.

Its form would be approximately like that.

In the following photo taken from:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=161924&start=15

thread. Re: Argentina artillery Id. - Post by ain92 » 07 Jul 2014

Sample files Schneider : "Présentation de différents matériels d'artillerie au polygone d'Harfleur"

where the system is armed with a brick track where it is moved by a lever with a small wheel, the rear of the gun carriage.

Although I have knowledge of the operation the others Schneider, because when I did the courses to officer were still in service, this particular model is very little known. The reduced option of carrying (by weight and volume) held him at Campo de Mayo (Buenos Aires).

Regards

Eduardo

Barbanente · Major

Hi

The center of rotation of the traverse turntable that the howitzer British 25 Pounder used is the center of the platform and joined to the carriage, so that it is used to correct large angles in direction, and then adjusted with correcting the steering mechanisms that move the overcarriage.

In the case of mortar Schneider, can not be joined to the gun carriage because as in all boxtrail Schneider, for the fine adjustment was done moving to the carriage over the axis of the wheels

The only possible way to make it work would attach the platform with the wheels and to leave work the direction system that had the mortar.

Regards

Eduardo

Feodor Jirnovsky · Private

220mm TR Mle 1916 in the backyard of The Artillery Museum, Saint Petersburg.

CharlieC · Legend

Undeniably a Schneider 220mm howitzer. I wonder how it got to Russia - perhaps captured by the Red Army from the Wehrmacht

in WW2. The Wehrmacht captured them from the French Army in 1940 and used the Schneider howitzers as organic parts of the Wehrmacht

artillery.

Sigh .... I'l have to update the article on Landships II about the 220mm howitzer. May I have your permission to use the image of the howitzer

at St. Petersburg?

Regards,

Charlie

Feodor Jirnovsky · Private

Good day!

This is trophy mortar also known as Mrs.531(f), captured near Leningrad.

In the backyard of The Artillery Museum is located big collecion of russian and trophy artillery pieces of WWI and WWII.

Photos of this mortar, about 10 years ago:

At present, the territory of backyard is in order.

Brunner88 · Colonel

Good Day to you Feodor:

I have a question.. As I posted elsewhere, the Spanish Blue Division (No. 250 in the Wehrmach ) was a volunteer force that fought in the Eastern Front in the Leningrad sector. This unit was given some captured Schneider 220 mm mortars.. I wonder if th one shown in your photo could be one of the ones left behind, by the S[anish troops when the Wehrmacht retreated? Any chance of finding this out?

Here are a couple of pics of the Schneider 220 L10,8 mod. 1928 preserved at the Colegio Militar de la Nación (the Argentine Army Military Academy)photographed by a friend who teaches at that institution
Cheers!

Gunther

Brunner88 · Colonel

The Schneider 220 mm mortar was issued to an Experimental Unit in the Argentine Army and tested in maneuvers. This is recorded and verified by photos. Not verified by evidence, however is a statement made by some English journalist in a book about Peron, in which he claims he 220 mm mortar was used to quell an insurrection that occurred on 28 September 1951,. According to this source, 40-50 rounds of 220mm shells were fired tat the Air Force base in Moron. Unsubstantiated by eyewitnesses.
In Any Even, here's a photo taken from a book in my collection. It's part of a seven volume set issued by the Argentine Government: Obra de Gobierno: 1932-38" (Ejército-Ferrocarriles del Estado It is rather well illustrated, and the pictures in the artillery section seem to stem from Schneider originals. By the way, the color photos of this artillery piece were part of a set taken by an old friend of mine who taught at the Colegio Militar de la Nación, Dr. Julio H. Rubés..

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Monday 23rd of January 2017 08:18:51 PM

Brunner88 · Colonel

The technical specs for the 220 mm Mortar, sent many years ago ny Herr Franza Kosar:He indicated that the data came froma Schneider catalogue) in respose to my letter enclosing the previous photo of this artillery piece.

Caliber: 220 mm

Barrel: 10(sic)

Traverse: 4o in carriage, 60o in platform

Shell : 103 kilograms

Explosive charge: 22,865 kg.

Muzzle velocity 415 m/sec

Height of barrel above ground1,9 meters

Diameter of Wheels : 1,5 m

Weigh, in firing position: 8.00 kg

Maximum Range: 11.200

Weight in firing position

On carriage: 8.000 kg.

On Platform: 10.200 kg.

Transport: 1 three (3) loads

Barrel:5.000 kg.

Carriega:5.780 kg.

Platform: 4.500 kg.

Transport, in one load: 8.700 kg.

Contrary to some opinions, the weight was not a factor here: for the Argentine Army possessed a larger number of Schneider 155 L.30,87 mod. 1928 cannon that were roughly in the same weight category as the 220 mm piece. The 155 mod. 1928 weighed 8.140 kilos, and there were sufficient heavy prime movers in the Army (Thornycroft Tartar and Amazon 6 x 6, and the very powerful HAFDASA "Criollo" 6 x 6 ...

I wrote (via ordinary mail) to a friend who until recently headed the Historical Commission of the Argentine Army, just to be informed that he now suffers from Alzheimers. Another veteran of those days,, and one of the few surviving crew members of the Nahuel tank unit, ( as a young Sub-Liuetenant he was ta tank commander) just passed away....R.I.P.

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Tuesday 24th of January 2017 09:25:29 PM