Landships II

Werewombat · Corporal

Unknown detail on the Mk.IV's hull

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Hi

You're referring to the filler pipe for a Mark IV with a twin tubular radiator. Mark IVs with envelope radiators don't have this, and you don't need it if the Mark IV you're modelling has an envelope radiator. As for which Mark IVs had envelope radiators and which twin tubular radiators, subscribe to the MAFVA and get Part 3 of my article on Decoding Mark IV Serial Numbers in the very next issue of Tankette!

On the Landships II walkaround of the Mark IV Female formerly at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, USA you will find a close up. Note that there is a screw thread at the top of the pipe indicating it once had a screw cap. This is long gone and I don't have a photo of one.

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Friday 6th of March 2015 09:31:33 PM

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Friday 6th of March 2015 09:33:41 PM

Werewombat · Corporal

Hello Gwyn,

thank you very much for the irrefragable answer!

I don't know the serial number of my vehicle because it's German tank with unknown British service history, the photo came from the Beute-Tanks vol.1

There isn't any other ways to define the type of radiator?

Best regards, Boris

-- Edited by Werewombat on Saturday 7th of March 2015 02:46:59 AM

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

4643 'Grit' at Canberra AWM is one of those with filler pipe. No close-up available?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I believe that the German Army preferred the twin tubular radiator to the earlier envelope type, so for a Beute tank I suggest you model it as one with a twin tubular.

Yes, 4643 has a twin tubular radiator. I have a close up of the filler pipe on the tank but it is just the same as that on the tank in the USA. The screw cap is also missing from 4643.

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans on Saturday 7th of March 2015 05:46:31 PM

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Gwyn Evans wrote:
I believe that the German Army preferred the twin tubular radiator to the earlier envelope type, so for a Beute tank I suggest you model it as one with a twin tubular.

They had no reason to be picky; they had to take what they could get. - I've Wagen 207 'Heinz' (the first one, lost at la Pompelle) with filler pipe; and I believe 4571 Wagen 113 'Liesel' had one too (but I can get no clear image of it). And I have two late ones (one has a serial starting with 4) at BAKP 20 with filler pipes. That's about all...

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Mark IVs with envelope radiators preceded Mark IVs with twin tubular radiators in production, and those with twin tubulars outnumbered those with envelope radiators. By the time quantities of usable Mark IVs were captured (i.e. Cambrai) a lot of the Mark IVs with envelope radiators were lying wrecked in the Ypres Salient. So the majority of tanks captured by the Germans had twin tubular radiators.

Gwyn

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Unfortunately, the pertaining area remains obscure on most photographs of Beute tanks. And British serials (with few exceptions) as well...

Gwyn Evans · Legend

True, but you can tell which type of radiator a Mark IV has by looking at the arrangement of the radiator armour on the hull rear. You don't have to be able to see the filler pipe to know whether it's there or not.

Gwyn

MRG · Major

Smarter every day...!

I had found no technical information regarding that tube so far and I did not really bother as I believed it would be an exhaust / pressure outlet of some sort. Seeing the pictures of the surviving examples I guessed every Mark IV had them, as all the radiator grills seem identical (apart from some being upside down). I did not know that different radiator versions were used.

I was given access to the roof of Lodestar III by means of a ladder next to it when I visited - but I missed the detail with the threaded end. It is certainly also missing it's cap. The pictures I took where quite dark - the whole museum room is very badly lit - so sadly I can offer no detail on the length of thread itself.

With best regards,

Martin

Gwyn Evans · Legend

The radiator grills you refer to is presumably just the air outlet on the port side of the hull rear. This isn't the radiator, which is inside the hull. You're right - at some point this grill has been removed from 'Grit' and reinstalled upside down. This is a mistake on 'Grit'. Don't think it's a variation in design.

The bad lighting around 'Lodestar III' is understandable as the tank is surrounded by textiles. Presumably lengthening exposure time would help, but I'm such a bad photographer even I wouldn't take my own advice. I took a lot of photos of 'Lodestar III' last weekend when I was there. Some very good, most usable for my own study, some just embarrassingly bad.

Gwyn

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Gwyn Evans wrote:
True, but you can tell which type of radiator a Mark IV has by looking at the arrangement of the radiator armour on the hull rear. You don't have to be able to see the filler pipe to know whether it's there or not.

Gwyn

Usually obscured by the unditching beam, which had its default storing position at the same latitude, and is even found sitting there on most derelict vehicles. - If you can get a good picture of the rear at all. - But why should it be easy?

Concerning 4093 'Lodestar III', there seems to have taken place a stealing contest for filler pipe caps. This tank's cap is missing as well.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Got it! There seems to be a kind of clutch on top of the cap.

MK1 Nut · Hero

Sorry can't help out with MKIV details, but this is how things looked with the MK1. You'll notice that the thread is internal and the end cap is like a large plumbing fitting that screws into the end.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Sorry Helen, that's the filler for an envelope radiator, not that for the twin tubular which comes through the roof.

Gwyn

Gwyn Evans · Legend

mad zeppelin wrote:
Got it! There seems to be a kind of clutch on top of the cap.

Excellent! A detail I haven't seen before. Thank you.

I had guessed it wouldn't just be a straightforward cap - it had to be worth pinching.

Gwyn

Werewombat · Corporal

Wow! Thank you MZ!

So, this cap is same as Mk.Vs one:

The mystery is revealed :) Thank you all very much!

Also I found the photo of Aberdeen Mk.IV roof clearly showing the position of the filler:

Werewombat · Corporal

...and another one question on Mk.IV (I don't want to procreate too many topics): does anybody have clear photos of rear top supports of unditching beam rails?

As I can see on photos, they may be of two types, or missing at all. I'm interested in this type:

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

The female vehicle you're trying to model is fitted with compass and - slightly - raised alignment for unditching beam rail. There is another photograph of this vehicle on page 165 of volume II of Beute-Tanks.

argonne64 · Captain

Hello
I do not have detailed pictures regarding rear top support ( Flat steel ) but the type on the picture is the one with the round steel between the 2 rails.
This round bar was used to hang 2 chains that were maintaining the beam in storage position ( with the 2 plates riveted on each side of the rails below the beam ).
Best regards
Olivier

Gwyn Evans · Legend

argonne64 wrote:
... the type on the picture is the one with the round steel between the 2 rails.
This round bar was used to hang 2 chains that were maintaining the beam in storage position ( with the 2 plates riveted on each side of the rails below the beam ).

I am not convinced this is correct. Does anyone have a photo showing the beam chained to this round bar? Also the 2 plates mentioned are not riveted to the rail, but bolted.

Gwyn

argonne64 · Captain

Gwyn
You are right , the 2 plates where is resting the beam are bolted to the rail , not riveted.
The round pipe seems to be a stiffener between the 2 rails.
I am looking for pictures related to the small chain passing around .( I have it somewhere...)
Saw this for sure ...
That was maybe not an " official " use but an improvisation from the crew.
Will keep you posted
Best Regards
Olivier

Werewombat · Corporal

I have a guess that round bar was initially designed as support for tarp over the stowage box (rails has another two pairs of holes over the box that may be also connected with bars:
take.ms/nhXdz

But for some reason tarps didn't used on Mk.IVs despite all stowage boxes was equipped with fittings for tarp on frontal and rear sides

-- Edited by Werewombat on Wednesday 11th of March 2015 01:32:00 PM

-- Edited by Werewombat on Wednesday 11th of March 2015 01:53:50 PM

MRG · Major

Fantastic, I love this forum. It is more like a combined research team.

Now I too can put a filler tube cap on my model, which I did not know even existed!

The holes on the rails above the storage box are also visible on Lodestar III, but no sign of a support in the front corners of the box or connecting bars. There are also no corresponding holes on the box itself.

Regards to all

Martin

-- Edited by MRG on Sunday 22nd of March 2015 02:25:25 PM