I am involved in the restoration of a 10.5cm German WW1 howitzer. This war trophy "belongs" to one of our regional councils. We have totally stripped the gun and are now replacing and repairing it as we re assemble. Have new trails and will have new wheels in time for this November Armistice day ceremony.(Hopefully)
The gun has been identified as a 10.5 cm leichte Feldhaubitze Krupp L/20 by Lt Col. Herbert Jager (ret) author of the book "German Artillery of WW1". Col. Jager is a retired officer in the German Ordnance Corps and a past vice President of the Artillery Study Group which is attached to the School of Artillery. His job was to answer all enquiries concerning artillery. Her has been most helpful to us with all sorts of information and technical sketches.
He has advised that this gun, manufactured in 1918 is a rather rare one having been manufactured not by Rheinmetal or Krupp but by an unknown factory with the initials “RWF” stamped on the breech block. (R could be the name of the owner, W for “Werke” (Factories) and “F for the place. Krupp probably outsourced some of their work. Only a few were made of this model.
I have two asks.
1. Would anyone out there know of the name and location of this manufacturer with the initials RWF. Photo attached
2. When the gun arrived in Australia it had wheels with two different size steel tyres. One 80mm the other 160mm. These have slightly different size hubs. To make our wheelwright's task easier to make two the same size, I am trying to locate another hub for an 80mm wide tyre. Either from a 105mm or a 77mm gun. Anyone know of any contacts that might be able to help.
I would be very interested to see the final restored gun and good luck continuing the work!
for #2, have you contacted the Australian group that makes different wwi replicas? they make tanks, artillary, air craft I dont have an email right of the bat but ill look for it.
I am puzzled why Herr Jager did not use the official normenclature for this gun. The Imperial Army used 3 types of howitzers in calibre 10,5cm
10,5cm lFH 98/09 (L 12)
10,5cm lFH 16 (L 22)
10,5cm lFH 16kp
This last piece was the Krupp version that lost in trials to the Rhienmetall. I must ask you, does you speciman have axle seats ? It is important to know ....
Thanks for your response. I have also approached all the RSLs (Returned & Services League) here in Sth Australia and the various Australian Army museums so fingers crossed.
Will have to use the bigger hub if not available as it would be a bit tricky to manufacture one, although if you get the address for the group you mention I will certainly ask them. Thanks.
Have attached a few more photos for interest and will certainly put the finished gun photos on this site.
You have an FH16. I had speculated that it might be an FH16(kp), but it is not. I know of only one still in existance... Though a Rheinmetall design, many were sub-contracted out as Herr Jager has said. By the beginning of the war, Krupp had earned not a little scorn from the military procurement staff for the c96 fiasco, and Rheinmetall had gained much favor with those same authorities.
Hope my last posting with Jager's comments and photos makes sense. He seems very clear that ours is an L/20 version. Evidently the tube length measurement is the critical deciding factor.
I think that my reply hasn't posted for some reason. So here goes again with Herbert Jager's identifiaction of this gun.
I will attach a couple of photos in another posting.
The German Army fielded not a single model of the 10,5 cm le FH (caliber of German guns was given until 1945 in cm; 1 cm = 10 mm), but more. The first 10,5 cm le FH was the model of 1898, called le FH 98 Still having a non¬recoiling tube, the whole gun together with its carriage recoiled after firing. Later these le FH 98 were redesigned to have a recoiling tube braked hydraulically and now called le FH 09. The old le FH 98 also were reworked and called le FH 98/09 Of these the German Field Artillery at the end of war still had no less than 1,144. Since the war showed soon that range of the German guns had to be increased, design of a new family of guns of all calibers was started and they were fielded in 1916. Among them was also a new 10,5 cm le FH 16 In 1918 the German artillery had 3,004 of these. So we first must know which model of the German 10,5 cm le FH you have in Australia.
Dear Mr. Maslen,
Your last letter with the tube length of 2.095 mm giving an L/20 measured by you and also the photos of the howitzer now clearly identified it: It is the model of the 10,5 cm Ieichte Feldhaubitze Krupp. I had believed you to have either the older model of 1eFH 98/09 of 1909 with L/12 built by Krupp, of which some 1,144 saw the end of WW I or the following model of leFH 16 of 1916 with L/22 made by Rheinmetall, of which 3,004 were reported to be in service in 1918. Now it turned out that yours is the rather rare L/20 mode! of the Krupp made rival to the new Rheinmetall version, of which only 264 were in service at the end of WW I. Krupp selling guns worldwide since 1847 did not like being bested by the upstart Rheinmetal! again, after their (Krupp) 7,7 cm Feldkanone (18)96 with a rigid carriage was converted by Rh. in 1904 to a recoiling tube system and called 7,7 cm FK 96 neuer Art (new type). Now in 1916 Rh. had managed to bring out a new 7,7 cm FK 16 and also a new 10,5 cm 1eFH 16 (see enclosure 2), both using the same carriage. So Krupp persuaded the artillery people to let them make a light 10,5 cm field howitzer of their own. This was to be based on the 12 cm Krupp leFH 12, which Krupp had sold to the Swiss (see enclosure 3), only now with a 10,5 cm tube in place of the 12 cm one the Swiss had received. Permission was granted and Krupp made and also had made by other manufacturers, with Krupp being busy in the large caliber sector, like for instance with design and manufacture of the 21 cm "Wilhelmgeschutz", the Paris gun firing at 130 km distance a rather small number of their competing model of a new light 10,5 cm field howitzer. This was called the 10,5 cm 1eFH Krupp (see enclosure 1).
Robin, with all due respect, your photographs do not illustrate an FH16(kp). It is in fact the Rheinmetall FH16. The identifying features of the (kp) are as follows:
A) No axle tree seats! These are prominant on the Rhienmetall lFH16; even as they are on your piece.
B) Barrel bands; very distinctive on the (kp) version. You will note your piece does not have these bands.
Again, I personally know of only one surviving lFH 16(kp) that survives today.
Thanks for the info. Just when I thought I had it properly identified. I wonder why Herbert was so sure it was an L/20. Unfortunately he is not on email but I will send him your comments and see what he makes of them. He seemed to put a lot in the length of the barrel.
In relooking at the material he has sent to me, and that from the Waffenrevue 101 & 102 from the BSB museum which unfortunately is all in German with some of Herbert's translations in critical parts it is clear that there is quite some inaccurate information floating around.
Herbert made some copies from General Muthers book "light artillery before, during and after WW1, Part 1 Field artillery". He states that "this is the most qualified information as Muther was chief of German field artillery during the war and wrote this book already in 1925 when his notes and memories were perfect."
I will scan and attach an image of the page of comparison data which he has highlighted the barrel lengths.
Oh boy I hope I can get a final identification.
Thanks so much for your interest
Robin
I am attaching a jpeg image with Muther's data re the various guns showing among other things the barrel lengths.but it is not very clear. I can't post a pdf file with simpload. If you would like to receive a clear copy of that pdf page let me know by email at rmaslen@ozemail.com.au and I will email it to you.
Actually, the barrel length really is not in dispute; L20 or L22 may simply be a clash of basic arithmatic gone ascrue. It is my suspicion that Herr Japer emphesis is on the manufacturer of the piece your restoring; not necessarily the parent design firm. Often intent can be lost when translating from one tongue to another. (In my experience, forgetting the action word (verb) frequently comes last in a sentence has caused me embaresment because my verbage was confusing to my German listeners.)
I am unable to post pics here, but will send a pic of the lFH16(kp) to Tim who I suspect will be kind enough to post it to this forum trend. The cosmetic differences between your piece, and that in the pic will be readily discernable.
Incidently, I agree with Herr Jager's appraisal of Muther's work. Unfortunately, his notes have long been lost along with the bulk of official German WW1 data when Potsdam was bombed to smitherines in 1945.
Thanks Jack. If any problems my email address is in the last posting although it is also in my Profile which I forgot and any photos could be sent diret and I can post it for you on the forum.
