Landships II

cduckworth · Sergeant

Painting help with the 21cm Amiens railway gun.

cduckworth · Sergeant

Btw the gun is 28cm and not 21cm. Sorry about the typo.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

http://www.landships.info/landships/railway_articles.html#

cduckworth · Sergeant

MZ
Thanks for the link and happy to read the AWM stayed true to the original colors. Now the work begins.

CharlieC · Legend

mad zeppelin wrote:
http://www.landships.info/landships/railway_articles.html#

You can get a URL to individual pages on Landships II by looking at the bottom of the page you wish to reference - there's a heading which

says "URL for this page" - http://landships.info/landships/railway_articles.html?load=railway_articles/28cm_kurze_bruno.html

Regards,

Charlie

(It took me ages to figure out how to make that work - may as well use it)

-- Edited by CharlieC on Tuesday 6th of August 2019 01:58:23 AM

Peter T · General

Hi gents

This question on the camouflage is a very intrerestig indeed. An short article can be found here: https://www.awm.gov.au/about/our-work/projects/amiensgun

It has been debated some years ago and I there noted that there is a slight possibility that the colours found on the remaining parts could have been faded over the years. You can also read it in the Landships article (see mad zeppelins link):

"A note on the camouflage. The manner it has been painted is NOT speculative. The Museum have done a very ambitious job in reconstructiong the original camouflage on this, one of their most prized possessions, stripping the gun of layers of post-WW1-paint, to get down to the real thing. And they have got the exotic pattern exactly right. The exact hues can be debated, however. The basic colours are without doubt correct, and they match exactly with what we know about German WW1 Arty Camouflage (often using combinations of sand, dark brown, light brown and feldgrau, with black borders). I hold it as a possibility though, that the years under the hot Australian sun first faded the Feldgrau into something appearing Mint Green, and the Light Brown into something appearing Pink."

Here some pictures that may support that view:

18 September 1918 Paris

1942 Port Wakefield

And I didn't dare to ask whether the gun had been repainted one day...

18 September 1918 Paris

26 March 1920 Sydney

Cheers, Peter

cduckworth · Sergeant

Peter
Thanks, for the post. In looking at the photos on the AWM site of the carriage being dismantled I’m of the opinion that only the sides of the carriage were camouflaged as the top of the structure hold the gun appear to be a uniform color and perhaps field gray. You or others have similar thoughts?

Peter T · General

cduckworth wrote:
Peter
Thanks, for the post. In looking at the photos on the AWM site of the carriage being dismantled I’m of the opinion that only the sides of the carriage were camouflaged as the top of the structure hold the gun appear to be a uniform color and perhaps field gray. You or others have similar thoughts?

That's my impression too. There are some pictures of the carriage while scrapping that show this very clear. All the inner sides and even the top of the carriage profiles appear to have an unifom colour - "Fieldgray" would be my first choice, but I am NO expert in railway guns!!!If you google "Amiens Gun" and "Paris" there are other clear pictures too, that support that theory and even some parts of the side (platform) have obviously no camo ...

P.S. If you would send me your email adress, I could send you some additional pics.

-- Edited by Peter T on Wednesday 7th of August 2019 08:46:45 PM

CharlieC · Legend

I wonder if the Amiens Gun was carried as deck cargo to Australia - the paint job looks pretty tatty on the 1920 image in Sydney although

the camouflage scheme was in good condition when it was displayed in Paris in 1918.

Perhaps the camouflage scheme is partly due to painting in Australia before it was displayed outside the Canberra railway station.

I found some images which I think might support my case. It really comes down to how well did the painting in Australia before the gun went to Canberra

replicate the original appearance of the gun

Regards,

Charlie

Epoch3 · Corporal

Hello - I have been thinking this about camo pattern for quite some time and had been looking for an easy way to do it (dry transfer decals. hydrographics etc etc). I never found a silver bullet. So, I then started to look at trying to at least make it accurate with respect to pattern details. I had the opportunity to visit the Australian War Memorial/Museum several years back and took some pictures of the remaining parts of the 28cm Bruno (which were the ammo loading cabin roof and barrel). I talked to some staff and they indicated (as above) the color scheme had been researched quite a bit and was accurate. I always thought it was "too loud" and needed a patina just to make it look the part of "war machine". I took a profile shot taken of Bruno while on display in Paris that had a fairly good perspective of the pattern and made a "rough" outline in photoshop. From there, I took the image and applied the color samples from the barrel at the museum. I played around first trying to see what the pattern would look like so I then took the image I had made in photoshop and applied that to the 3D model I used original to create the physical model. Please see the attached photos of my preliminary estimate as to what I think it would have looked like. I muted the colors and made it look a bit weathered (since I prefer beaten up look). While not exactly a solution, I hope the info helps you get her makeup on :)

Happy Modeling!

Epoch3 · Corporal

Hi - Forgot to add one pic that shows the top of the roof had been painted -

Regards

Edit: Please note some of the demarcation lines between colors have been hi-lited by me (in photoshop).

My goal here was to hi-lite the known lines to help better establish the pattern. I just wanted to

point that out relative to evaluating the photo.
Cheers

-- Edited by Epoch3 on Sunday 11th of August 2019 01:47:11 PM

cduckworth · Sergeant

Beautiful model! I’m in the same camp as yourself with the original colors being too loud. Do you recall what brand and colors you used on your model?

Peter T · General

Looks very, very impressive!!!

Epoch3 · Corporal

Hi again, with regard to the perception that the Bruno paint scheme seems to be a bit over the top, please see an example at the link below. About 7 or 8 years ago, someone contacted me seeking information on the Bruno. I provided them a few drawings and an early version of the 3D model I had made. They indicated they were doing a movie but couldn’t tell me anything about it. They were from New Zealand and I am pretty sure they were or were connected to WETA (a well known Special Effects company there). I don't know to what degree they used the model or information I provided to them but I think that the model in some way contributed to the design of the model below. I think this is in 1/10th scale but don't know for sure.

https://mashable.com/2015/04/17/new-zealand-great-war-museum/

green_acorn · Captain

Epoch3,

That model Sir Peter Jackson is standing next to certainly looks 1/10th scale to me. I hope his company has attributed your contribution to their research.

Cheers,

Chris

green_acorn · Captain

CharlieC,

The Amiens gun was carried as hold cargo. It was in the forward hold closest to the bridge and can be seen in this image being unloaded at Jones Bay, Sydney, during 1920.

Cheers,

Chris

green_acorn · Captain

I would suggest that due to oxidation of pigments over the years, though the colours may be slightly wrong, the pattern itself, as the AWM says, is correct.

Note the images from Paris in September 1918 and the dull appearance, with barely discernible patterns on the roof, in Sydney 1920. I would suggest that prior to leaving France, a protective coat of engine oil was rubbed all over the gun, to protect it from rust and salt spray. This was a common method to protect steel and iron, frequently used on steam engines at the time and no doubt used by seafarers as well. This would have been a magnet for dust, coal dust and soot whilst awaiting transport and on arrival in Sydney, but would have stopped it quickly rusting away.

This is an AWM image of the gun with a SGT (probably the Engr SGT who drove the train) once it was driven to safety on 8 Aug 1918.

E02779

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C962591?image=2

CharlieC · Legend

green_acorn wrote:
CharlieC,

The Amiens gun was carried as hold cargo. It was in the forward hold closest to the bridge and can be seen in this image being unloaded at Jones Bay, Sydney, during 1920.

Cheers,
Chris

Being picky but the carriage certainly is shown being hoisted out of ship's hold - no evidence on the barrel or superstructure. It looks like the outriggers didn't survive the dismantling and transport to Australia.

Fiddling about with the image taken after capture with Gimp the gun house looks as if the camo pattern was four colours - I won't fall into error and try to guess what they were.I'm reminded of the comments by Max Hundleby about the A7Vs - that they were transported to the Belgian railway workshops at Monceau-sur-Sambre and camouflage painted with whatever paint was available. Hundleby suggests the A7V camouflage was likely Belgian railway colours (red-brown, green and ivory/amber (interior paint)) over Feldgrau base coat. Perhaps a similar process happened with the railway guns - it would make sense to use the nearest available railway workshops as a base for maintenance of the railway guns rather than sending them back to the factory.

Regards,

Charlie

Epoch3 · Corporal

Hi - The whole thing was just disassembled in order for it to fit on the ship. It was reassembled back in Australia and put on display. I think even the ammo wagon was initially displayed with the gun unit. There is a grouping of photos on the net somewhere showing the barrel, trucks and little bits etc all being loaded on the ship. The piece was repainted in the 1920s and probably several more times before it was partially disassembled with the carriage/mount pressed into service as a test bed for conducting barrel testing at one of the test ranges. The main carriage was cut up for scrap in 1962 I think (see photos).

In the one photo with the welder, you see one of the Jack screws and Bruno's Weige minus the barrel off to the side.

Sorry - I had problems linking photos -

Best Regards

-- Edited by Epoch3 on Thursday 15th of August 2019 01:49:09 AM

-- Edited by Epoch3 on Thursday 15th of August 2019 01:54:51 AM

-- Edited by Epoch3 on Thursday 15th of August 2019 02:06:42 AM

Peter T · General

CharlieC wrote:
Fiddling about with the image taken after capture with Gimp the gun house looks as if the camo pattern was four colours

I must admit, I had the same impression. However I have no doubt, that the experts that researched the paint some 20 years ago did a good job. Couldn't it be that some hues are so close in tone and brightness that you can't distinguish them in b/w photos?

cduckworth · Sergeant

I wrote the AWM as to the colors used on the Amiens gun and here’s the reply

”colours that were selected for the Amiens gun were based on previous conservation investigations, involving paint sampling and spot rubbing back to bare metal surfaces, to determine chronology and camouflage patterning to ‘1938 layer’. Paint colour matching was conducted in conjunction with a paint company in Canberra.

The Industrial paint system selected is a Wattyl Paracryl IF540 two pac acrylic. This paint system was selected for durability and resistance to UV and oxidation, due to objects prolonged display outside. The paint has a high gloss, which I suspect is not appropriate. We added 30% matting agent (maximum recommended by manufacturer) to dull down surface appearance. Keep in mind that the paint is modern and colour achieved is indicative of WWI period.

Colours (camouflage) applied to surfaces in 1999, 2011 and 2018 are as follows:

Wattyl Colour code Colour

40018 DARK TAN (Amiens Gun Salmon)

40017 TAN (Amiens Gun Yellow)

40019 LT BROWN Formula (Amiens Gun Red)

30181 BEIGE (Amiens Gun Cream)

20099 GREEN (Amiens Gun LT Green)

40016 DARK brown (Amiens Gun Brown)

BLACK Black

Colour applied in 2018 after complete disassembly and treatment of gun shelter

CUSTOM Grey (Amiens Gun shelter-underside roof panels) - tint 450(48); 510(2); 560(34)

Paracryl IF 540 Matting base

Wattyl L747 Thinners”

Unfortunately Wattyl doesn’t sell paint in the US so I can’t get paint chips. I tried using their web site to look up these colors using the numbers

provided using a search but got back an entire web page of similar hues. So if som has more experience in using their web site I’d appreciate seeing what these colors are.

Charlie D.

Peter T · General

‘1938 layer’, not 1918? Could this be a typing error? If not, we would have an explanation for the actual vivid colours

cduckworth · Sergeant

Peter

Good point, I‘ve emailed the auth of the email to confirm is it 1938 or 1918. I’ll post her response when I get it. The use of the Belgium Railway colors is an interesting theory to this discussion.

Charlie

green_acorn · Captain

Charlie,

Having spoken to my father who is both a former Royal Australian Engineers railway and small ships officer, the gun barrel would have also been in a hold, as would probably have been the bogies and other associated parts. It would have been illiogical to have the barrel strapped to the deck of a general cargo ship of the day, there wasn't much free deck space, very few tie down points and there are good reasons for the gun and other large items being being carried as hold cargo. The carriage and barrel would most likely have been the heaviest loads on board and putting them in the hold, tightly packed with dunnage, keeps the centre of gravity low and most importantly stops the very heavy cargo breaking chains on deck in a storm during the long voyage to Australia.

Even the British railway howitzers and guns of the time went across the Channel as hold cargo. Though I suspect Boche Buster and Scene Shifter would have gone across by the train ferry.

Cheers,

Chris

green_acorn · Captain

I have looked at the Wattyl Industrial site. I will try and drop into a Wattyl centre and see if I can get a brochure/Pantone colour codes for you. If I can get a brochure I will scan it for you.

Chris

cduckworth · Sergeant

green_acorn wrote:
I have looked at the Wattyl Industrial site. I will try and drop into a Wattyl centre and see if I can get a brochure/Pantone colour codes for you. If I can get a brochure I will scan it for you.
Chris
Chris
I have the Munsell color book to so if there’s a way to cross reference these colors to the ones on the gun that would help too

cduckworth · Sergeant

cduckworth wrote:
Peter
Good point, I‘ve emailed the auth of the email to confirm is it 1938 or 1918. I’ll post her response when I get it. The use of the Belgium Railway colors is an interesting theory to this discussion.
Charlie

Here is the latest response from the AWM on their color research on the Amiens gun:

Dear Charlie,

Dianne is working on an exhibition project at the moment but I contacted our senior large objects conservator, who holds the original report into the gun that was undertaken by a conservator (John) who is now retired. Here’s what he said:

“Had another look at John’s report in 1998. ‘The gun was stripped of previous paint layers down to 1938 layer (verified by Graffiti). Spot rubs down to bare metal confirmed reasonable accuracy to colour and lay out’.

So from this I suspect you can assume that the paint colour and layout of ‘1938 layer’ is at least indicative (if not original) of preceding paint colour and layout. Knowing John he would have had a systematic approach leading to final selection.”

As we undertook almost no repainting or restoration work on our large objects between the wars I think you would be safe to assume that the 1938 layer identified by the graffiti is in fact most likely to be the same as that in 1918.

Kind regards,

Jane

Jane Peek

Curator | Military Heraldry & Technology

Epoch3 · Corporal

Hi - here is a shot of Bruno probably after transit to Australia and during initial reassembly

Regards

CharlieC · Legend

That's an image of the assembly at Jones Bay, Pyrmont in Sydney. There are a few others of the assembly on the AWM website (AWM reference P02791).

Looking at this image and the others taken when the gun was captured and displayed I wonder if the lines between the camouflage segments

was black? There doesn't seem to be enough contrast between the camouflage colours and the boundary lines - perhaps the lines were green or brown?

The black lines on WW1 camouflage seem to have been used to mark off the camouflage segments - I guess the linseed oil paints were so slow drying that

painting a colour at a time would have been extremely tedious. There is an image around of workers painting a Saint Chamond tank in the factory - each woman

seems to be applying a different colour and the pattern is marked off with black paint lines.

Regards,

Charlie

Peter T · General

I think there is no doubt, that the actual camo painting represents exact what has been found on the subject in 1938. And I am convinced, the conservators did an excellent job!

But you might have got the same impression as I do: Looking at the pictures, I can see two different "Brunos", a bright one and a dull one. Of course I know, it's the same gun!

Now, in this first picture on can see a part ot the carriage (I assume) in its original colors, shortly after capture. According to the "Empfehlung des Chefs des Generalstabes des Feldheeres" dating 7th of July 1918, the colours of the "Buntfarbenanstrich" were sand, dark brown, light brown and feldgrau, with black borders. That's exactly what I can make out on the loding cabin - neatly painted four colours!

On the carriage the camo colours are more roughly painted and not as vivid as above. Most of the inscriptions were not painted over.

If you compare with this picture here, now we can see "Bruno" in full regalia down to the last corner of the arriage sides.

The caption says it all:

"Canberra, ACT. The 28 cm German railway gun that was captured by the Australian Imperial Force on 8 August 1918 in front of Harbonnieres, near Villers Bretonneux, France. This gun was used by the Germans to shell Amiens during World War 1. It is displayed on its original mountings on a section of a railway track and has been repainted. Note the empty paint tins in the foreground."

green_acorn · Captain

cduckworth wrote:
green_acorn wrote:
I have looked at the Wattyl Industrial site. I will try and drop into a Wattyl centre and see if I can get a brochure/Pantone colour codes for you. If I can get a brochure I will scan it for you.
Chris
Chris
I have the Munsell color book to so if there’s a way to cross reference these colors to the ones on the gun that would help too

I searched the Wattyl Industrial website for the colours and then the website of the US firm Sherwin-Williams which created the Paracryl IF540 two pac acrylic formula and failed to find anything. I contacted Wattyl Industrial and have just received an email from the Australian Technical Service Advisor of Sherwin-Williams, who write:

I can confirm all of the industrial colour listed below are still visible in our Wattyl Industrial data base.

It appears they have been retained as 'custom' colours for the Aust War Memorial in our system since 1998.

Unfortunately these colours are not something we have ever printed on colour charts or have visible on our websites.

I will go back to them and see if they can give me the Sherwin-Williams colour or Munsell colour codes.

Cheers,

Chris

spaya · Private

watch more videos on OGyoutube to know about painting help with the 21cm Amiens railway gun

Peter T · General

And very interesting and new to me Autochrome photo - the Amiens Gun. I suspected once, that the vivid colours (pink, lime green, ...) on the surviving gun barrel in Australia could be the result of the blistering Australian sun.

Here a late proof of that theory! I can make out field grey, red-brown, beige/sand and umbra - the classic Buntfarben colours.

Enjoy!