Landships II

haschenmann · Corporal

Who am I?

Mark Hansen · Legend

I don't think that A7V is 525 "Siegfried". 525 was a true male with the small pistol ports on the front plate, not a converted female. The A7V in that picture also has the Buck mount which was only fitted to 505, 506, 507 and 502. It must be an early shot because eventually all A7V's were fitted with a Socle mount with the exception of 506, which was captured before it could be converted.

P.S.: Another indication that it is an early photo is the absence of an exhaust pipe and the three hinges on the sprocket flap.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 14:36, 2006-06-26

Peter T · General

I can't actually find the original links for now, but as I read, it must be "Imperator" used by Freikorps shortliy after the war. Your remark, that it must be an early shot, seems to be lological. But what is with the "Buntfarben", the skull and bones and the white number plate? May be Rainer Strasheim could help?

Centurion · Legend

Just a quickie but whilst we are identifying A7Vs - have a go at this one - allegedly taken in Paris 1925! But surely you will say all the ones capyured by the French were scrapped by then - we all know the famous list showing the fate of all A7Vs. However 'scrapped' in the1920's and 30s was often used as a subterfuge by the French to sell weapons that were not supposed to be sold. A part was removed and the item registered as no longer operable whereafter the whole kaboodle was sold to a third party as 'scrap'. They then replaced the missing part and away they went. A number of aircraft were sold to the Spanish Republican in 1936/7 using this approach. One wonders if someone was trying to sell off old A7Vs in the early 1920s. On the other hand the dating could be plain wrong.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

Just a quickie but whilst we are identifying A7Vs - have a go at this one - allegedly taken in Paris 1925! But surely you will say all the ones capyured by the French were scrapped by then - we all know the famous list showing the fate of all A7Vs. However 'scrapped' in the1920's and 30s was often used as a subterfuge by the French to sell weapons that were not supposed to be sold. A part was removed and the item registered as no longer operable whereafter the whole kaboodle was sold to a third party as 'scrap'. They then replaced the missing part and away they went. A number of aircraft were sold to the Spanish Republican in 1936/7 using this approach. One wonders if someone was trying to sell off old A7Vs in the early 1920s. On the other hand the dating could be plain wrong.

That's 542 "Elfriede". When the shot was taken, I can't tell but I would suspect earlier than 1925. If it was sold as a runner rather than scrapped then the French did a really shonky deal. They had already cut huge square holes out of each side and the front to use as test pieces for shot penetration. You can see two of the holes on this side. I think this is one that can definitely be considered scrapped.

Centurion · Legend

Here is a better view

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

Here is a better view

That's something I missed with the smaller photo. That photo has been flipped horizontally for some reason. The door of the A7V is otherwise in the wrong position.

There is another detail that shows the photo has been flipped rather than it being of a different A7V. Check the buttons on the clothing. They are all on the wrong side.

Centurion · Legend

One wonders what the occasion for the photo was given the very mixed nature of the people in it. We appear to have one officer in the post WW1 uniform of a Scottish Lowland regiment (wearing trews), a man in a very scruffy French Railwayman's uniform at one end, A bold Gendarme in the middle, a Gendarme officer in the tank door , a man (on the opposite side of the Gendarme to the Scot) in what looks remarkably like a German fliegertruppen's undress uniform (minus insignia) and a tough looking character in a military beret and overalls who could come from a number of inter war tank units (including the French) (or he could have just bought them in an army surplus store!). The civilians vary from horny handed sons of toil to quite well dressed business (or government) types.

BTW my earlier point about scrap wasn't a suggestion that this tank was being sold but that because a vehicle is listed as scrapped in 1918/19 this doesn't necessarily mean that it ceased to exist there and then, just that it was re designated as scrap but could still linger on for a number of years in the yards of some scrap merchant cum second hand arms dealer (a sort of Arthur Daley of the tank world). If some had done so and attempts had been made to sell them off this could be one source of the Polish A7V myth.

Ah well who knows - I'll go back to course building for the time being.

Centurion · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

That's 542 "Elfriede". When the shot was taken, I can't tell but I would suspect earlier than 1925..

Elfride is listed as having been lost at Villers-Bretonneux 04/24/1918. Be interesting to know how she ended up on a railway wagon in France post WW1

Roger Todd · Legend

Although lost to the Germans, Elfriede appears only to have tipped over - the first photo attached shows her in this state; the second shows her in Allied hands (as far as I can tell).

However, as per the comment above about your A7V being flipped horizontally - I've flipped it back and reproduce it below along with the third photo, which I believe is of the same tank (note the dirt marks, the white triangle under the exhaust pipe, etc.):

All photos were pinched from this page...

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-vetscor/1313440/posts

...which says of Elfriede:

'..."Elfriede" was towed away by the French and British and examined and tested with great relish. It finally ended up in France, had plates cut from it for armor penetration testing, displayed in Paris until 1919, then junked. As the lines shifted, the abandoned "Mephisto" ended up in Australian hands, taken to Australia where is remains to this day, the last surviving A7V.'

Mark Hansen · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

All photos were pinched from this page... http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-vetscor/1313440/posts ...which says of Elfriede: '..."Elfriede" was towed away by the French and British and examined and tested with great relish. It finally ended up in France, had plates cut from it for armor penetration testing, displayed in Paris until 1919, then junked. As the lines shifted, the abandoned "Mephisto" ended up in Australian hands, taken to Australia where is remains to this day, the last surviving A7V.'

Here's two shots taken from a DVD of "Elfriede" being driven by the Allies.

Roger Todd · Legend

Which only goes to show that when a tank was listed as 'lost', it may mean precisely that - lost to its owner, not necessarily destroyed. Thus, there's no contradiction in Elfriede being 'lost' to the Germans and turning up in Alllied hands later on...

Mark Hansen · Legend

There's a photo on p. 123 of "The German A7V Tank...." showing "Elfriede" on display at the Place de la Concorde in Paris dated Nov. 9th 1918 along with captured artillery pieces.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

While we are on the topic of Elfriede, I was hoping that the forum members could help me out with a question. I'm working on a dio of Elfriede capsized in the sand pit, using the Tauro kit. The underside of the kit is completely inaccurate (though the bogie units are good), and of course there are a number of detail differences such as the side plates on the armoured body. I've scratch built a chassis, but I can't determine if the underside of the central engine compartment is plated over (like the fuel tanks in the forward part of the chassis) or open (like the transmission area at the rear). Any ideas?

P.S. Any one else having trouble logging onto the forum in the past few days?

Mark Hansen · Legend

I noticed the forum behaving a little oddly as well. It looks as if there has been a change whereby posts that are added to automatically move to the front of the list instead of being placed in chronological order.

Is your dio going to be of "Elfriede" after capture? It will be difficult to try to put the infantry graffiti all over the tank, even at 1:35 scale.

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

Which only goes to show that when a tank was listed as 'lost', it may mean precisely that - lost to its owner, not necessarily destroyed. Thus, there's no contradiction in Elfriede being 'lost' to the Germans and turning up in Alllied hands later on...

Basically the point I was trying to make - that famous list of the A7Vs although very useful may not always show the ultimate fate of each vehicle. 'Lost' tanks may have been subsequently recovered by the Allies and 'scrapped' might not always mean instantly dismantled.
It would be interesting to know how many A7Vs listed as lost were actually destroyed or otherwise rendered useless at the time.
Interesting to see that Elfride was still a goer after capture.

haschenmann · Corporal

Mark Hansen wrote:

I don't think that A7V is 525 "Siegfried". 525 was a true male with the small pistol ports on the front plate, not a converted female. The A7V in that picture also has the Buck mount which was only fitted to 505, 506, 507 and 502. It must be an early shot because eventually all A7V's were fitted with a Socle mount with the exception of 506, which was captured before it could be converted. P.S.: Another indication that it is an early photo is the absence of an exhaust pipe and the three hinges on the sprocket flap.

Funny how I didn't even notice those details, glad I never claimed to know what I'm talking about. Anyway, according to this that limits it to: 502, 505, 506 and 507. I know that many of the A7Vs were re-named and re-painted during their short careers, which makes it frustratingly difficult to be sure which of those four it was. Of the four, 502 is the only one that doesn't seem to have a known name.

Peter T wrote:
I can't actually find the original links for now, but as I read, it must be "Imperator" used by Freikorps shortliy after the war. Your remark, that it must be an early shot, seems to be lological. But what is with the "Buntfarben", the skull and bones and the white number plate? May be Rainer Strasheim could help?

It most certainly looks like 'Imperator' in the text, a name I wasn't aware of. It also makes sense that it could be a Freikorps vehicle, with the totenkopf (even though they had them on some wartime tanks), but I had read they only had one A7V - Heidi.

Thanks for the info men, I have much to learn.

Centurion · Legend

haschenmann wrote:

), but I had read they only had one A7V - Heidi.
.

1 There were 2 Heidis!
2 Heidi (1 and 2) were not A7Vs but boiler plate bodies built onto Uberlandwagens. Similar to but not the same shape as true A7Vs

There's more somewhere else in this forum

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

"Imperator" is seen at Lankwitz, barracks of KOKAMPF, certainly a Freikorps vehicle. Most probably it's 507 in new camouflage. 507 was the most worn out and damaged tank of Abt.3 - maybe it was sent to Daimler Marienfelde for repairs as BAKP 20 didn't accept repair jobs in October 1918 because they were already evacuating to Germany. (Other guess would be 505, unfortunately the soldiers obscure the covers of the towing hooks - or we would know.)

My favourite theory is that "Imperator" together with the second Hedi-type, the Whippet and some LKIIs formed the "Fast detachment" sent to East Prussia and remaining there.

Centurion · Legend

mad zeppelin wrote:

"Imperator" is seen at Lankwitz, barracks of KOKAMPF, certainly a Freikorps vehicle. Most probably it's 507 in new camouflage. 507 was the most worn out and damaged tank of Abt.3 - maybe it was sent to Daimler Marienfelde for repairs as BAKP 20 didn't accept repair jobs in October 1918 because they were already evacuating to Germany. (Other guess would be 505, unfortunately the soldiers obscure the covers of the towing hooks - or we would know.)
My favourite theory is that "Imperator" together with the second Hedi-type, the Whippet and some LKIIs formed the "Fast detachment" sent to East Prussia and remaining there.

Er - there was only one LKII actually built

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

Contrary to published belief, a bunch of them was constructed in Germany. 14 later were bought "very cheap" by the Hungarians. Number may have been a much as 68 in total, of which some went to Sweden. All of them machine gun armed.

Centurion · Legend

mad zeppelin wrote:

Contrary to published belief, a bunch of them was constructed in Germany. 14 later were bought "very cheap" by the Hungarians. Number may have been a much as 68 in total, of which some went to Sweden. All of them machine gun armed.

Sorry but no no no and again no

The Swedes built their own version under the guidance of Herr J Volmer the designer of the Lk I Lk II and LK III this was called the Strv m/21 and was later upgraded to the Strv m 21-29 in 1929

The Hungarians were forbidden Tanks by the Allies and did not acquire any until the 1930s when Mussonlini sold them some CV-33 tankettes and they licence built a version of the Swedish Strv m/33 as the Toldi (rather like a Pkw II)

The totla number of LKII ordered may have been about 60 but actual total production of all LK models did not exceed 5 ( Probably 2 LKI, 1 LK II a partially built LKIII and an unarmoured test chasiss. Otherwise we're into Polish A7V land

Mark Hansen · Legend

haschenmann wrote:

Funny how I didn't even notice those details, glad I never claimed to know what I'm talking about. Anyway, according to this that limits it to: 502, 505, 506 and 507. I know that many of the A7Vs were re-named and re-painted during their short careers, which makes it frustratingly difficult to be sure which of those four it was.

You made an educated guess and it was wrong. It happens; we're all human and we all make mistakes. If I eliminated all my posts that had errors, my posts would be reduced by a lot. And that includes my post here about the photo being an early photo. It has early and late characteristics (no exhaust, Bock gun mount = early; Buntfarben, Freikorps style Totenkopf = late) and I just went for the early, and missed the late, characteristics.

The A7V's are hard to pick apart. And what makes it worse is that there is no all-encompassing collection of photos of the A7V. At the time, I think the German army had more on it's mind than making sure modellers and historians were well catered for photographically.

haschenmann · Corporal

Thanks Mark, I truly appreciate you insight. The other factor is that anyone who would know is dead, and again I doubt that there would have been someone with the foresight to take notes from verterans who just wanted to move on from Germany's shameful defeat.

Centurion · Legend

There was considerable destruction of records in the German Ministry of War between 11/ 11/18 and the signing of the Versailles Treaty in 1919. (for example most of the official records of the Germany Army Air service were burnt). This was intended partly just to make life difficult for the Allies and partly to make it easier to hide attempts to build new clandestine forces. A lot of stuff that would have been of interest to historians (let alone modellers) went. The destruction does not seem to have been well organised or very systematic (so for example German tank development details seem to have been spared) but a further tranche of material went during the RAF bombing of Berlin. Its therefore not a surprise that info is patchy.
It does seem that a number of German historians did try and collect the stories of German veterans in the 1920s for example Der Deutchen Kampfwagen in Weltkrieg by Volkheim (1923) but :
a) I have not located any copies
b) probably couldn't afford them if I did and
c) don't read German

Still the truth is probably out there

Roger Todd · Legend

Centurion wrote:

Still the truth is probably out there

So it's a job for Mulder and Scullyyyyyy...?

wuestehu · Lieutenant

From the top of my head, Elfriede tipped and another A7V was destroyed on the same day. Both were abandonned and the Germans sent sappers to destroy them completely. For some reason they failed to place explosive charges in Elfreide that fell unharmed and in full working order in French hands. The French used it to study it and road tested it (take a look at my post on the video of Elfriede). Elfriede was displayed place de la Concorde after the end of the war and was officially scrapped. Somewhere, I have a pix that is supposed to�represent its scrapping. I will have to locate it.

I have posted 17 different postcards of ELFRIEDE on my website www.4600n200e.com