Landships II

Centurion · Legend

A8V?

Roger Todd · Legend

The Western Front association is not always 100% accurate in technical details - I suspect they refer to the K-Wagen, since there were a couple of different variants of the design: one rated at 148 tons (not 165 tons - I'd be interested to see where you got that figure as I've never seen it quoted in relation to the K-Wagen) and another at 120 tons, to have been achieved by shortening it.

For example, in the same article from which your quote originates, we read:

A redesign by Walter Wilson and William William Tritton, called �Big Willie� or �Mother�, was eventually adopted using the American Holt Company Caterpillar Tractor as the basic chassis. It had a rhomboid shaped body of steel plate with caterpillar tracks encircling the metal body. The rhomboid shape became the definitive image of the heavy British tanks of the Great War.

Using the Holt Caterpillar as the basic chassis?!?! I don't think I need comment on this.

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 01:37, 2006-08-31

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

I'd be interested to see where you got that figure as I've never seen it quoted in relation to the K-Wagen) For example, in the same article from which your quote originates, we read:

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 01:37, 2006-08-31

Its given in "The fighting tanks" Jones Rarey Icks 1933 but they give reference to "Tanks" Kruger, Berlin 1921 for most of their info on the A7V, A7VU, LK I, II and III and K Wagen and (most irritatingly for todays reader) point out that this book is readily available from the Infantry Journal in Washington DC (oh for a time machine). I would love to find a copy today (assuming I could spare an arm or a leg to buy it)

Centurion · Legend

As an example the enclosed photo of the K Wagens under construction originates from Krugers 1921 publication.

Bodlosh · Sergeant

Is this photo of "K-Wagen under construction" only photo of this tank? Or there are some others? I found only drawings, models etc.

Roger Todd · Legend

It's the only photo I've ever seen of the actual thing, which isn't to say someone hasn't got another squirelled away. David Fletcher sent me a copy years ago when he sent me a load of material on the K-Wagen. Like you, the only other images I've seen (other than plans) are photos of models (though the Schiffer book on German tanks has photos of the 77mm gun casemates).

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

It's the only photo I've ever seen of the actual thing, which isn't to say someone hasn't got another squirelled away. David Fletcher sent me a copy years ago when he sent me a load of material on the K-Wagen. Like you, the only other images I've seen (other than plans) are photos of models (though the Schiffer book on German tanks has photos of the 77mm gun casemates).

Which is why I'm keen to locate Kruger's 1921 book to see what other goodies it may hold. Those cutaway drawings of the LK II and III that some may be familiar with also appear to have been first published by Kruger as was the statement that only 2 LKII s were completed. As the guy was clearly a German contemporary and with access to then current material I'd like to explore his stuff even if it means struggling with the language.

The following photos may be familiar. They appear to be more or less contempory with Kruger's and were taken by someone called. O.H.Hacker (not a good name to do a google search on) Are these models or the real thing? It's difficult to tell given that some early darkroom whizz has edited out all the background. Books around 1930 represent them as the latter.

Roger Todd · Legend

I've seen those photos reproduced in various books and they're generally captioned as a large-scale model. As far as is known, no K-Wagen was completed - the photo of the two in the Riebe works shows both uncompleted, and from what I've read, I suspect that it's of the state of play at war's end. In any case, someone somewhere once commented that the rivets are far too widely spaced apart to be on a full-size vehicle. It's worth asking David Fletcher if he has the Krueger book, or anything else; back in 1990 he sent me quite a bit of stuff on the K-Wagen, commenting that he had friends in Germany looking for more material, so you never know what he might have turned up by now.

Centurion · Legend

I've seen references to Vollmer requesting permission from the Allied Control Commission for a test run before the K Wagen was scrapped (refused) - this would suggest that at least one of them was completed

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

Are these models or the real thing? It's difficult to tell given that some early darkroom whizz has edited out all the background. Books around 1930 represent them as the latter.

I think Roger is right about them being models. One other point is the slight "puckering" around the rivets in the upper photo. Very thin sheet metal on a model would distort in that fashion.

Roger Todd · Legend

Centurion wrote:

I've seen references to Vollmer requesting permission from the Allied Control Commission for a test run before the K Wagen was scrapped (refused) - this would suggest that at least one of them was completed

Mechanically complete perhaps, or even near completion with little more work needed to get it running, but not necessarily with its full armour covering or armament. I don't consider Vollmer's request proof that a K-Wagen was absolutely 100% finished.

This is what Schneider and Strasheim have to say:

When the war ended, one vehicle was almost finished at the Riebe works, a second (without motors) less far along, while at the Wegmann works one armoured body was nearly finished.

Presumably, the 'almost finished' vehicle had its motors and was in (potential) running condition, but 'almost finished' is quite vague: did it have a full covering, and guns? Presumably it's the machine Vollmer asked about, but that doesn't mean that it's the machine in the photos (which is probably a large model).

Meanwhile, attached is a photo of the front cover of Major Ernst Volckheim's 'Die Deutschen Kampfwagen im Weltkriege', published in 1937, with yet another photo of the K-Wagen, with its top cover off, and which is categorically labelled as a model (and it looks like the same one in all those other photos).

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 15:21, 2006-09-02

Centurion · Legend

Roger Todd wrote:

Centurion wrote:

I've seen references to Vollmer requesting permission from the Allied Control Commission for a test run before the K Wagen was scrapped (refused) - this would suggest that at least one of them was completed

Mechanically complete perhaps, or even near completion with little more work needed to get it running, but not necessarily with its full armour covering or armament. I don't consider Vollmer's request proof that a K-Wagen was absolutely 100% finished.

This is what Schneider and Strasheim have to say:

When the war ended, one vehicle was almost finished at the Riebe works, a second (without motors) less far along, while at the Wegmann works one armoured body was nearly finished.

Presumably, the 'almost finished' vehicle had its motors and was in (potential) running condition, but 'almost finished' is quite vague: did it have a full covering, and guns? Presumably it's the machine Vollmer asked about, but that doesn't mean that it's the machine in the photos (which is probably a large model).

Meanwhile, attached is a photo of the front cover of Major Ernst Volckheim's 'Die Deutschen Kampfwagen im Weltkriege', published in 1937, with yet another photo of the K-Wagen, with its top cover off, and which is categorically labelled as a model (and it looks like the same one in all those other photos).

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 15:21, 2006-09-02

Well the first vehicle in the factory appears to have guns mounted in the main sponsons and its side armour - just waiting for the top and ends and the drivers 'cab' to be fitted. I can't see how it could be run without the latter so Vollmer's request would suggest that one was if not complete very close to it . I accept that this doesn't mean that the photos are models or otherwise just that the state of compleatness does not preclude them from being of the real thing.

The photo of the topless model does raise one thing in my mind - how on earth was the K Wagen supposed to avoid the tracks jamming up with mud - there are no mud shutes etc. And if there was a blockage how could anyone get at it to clear it? Perhaps Vollmer wanted to take it for a spin round the park to test this?

Roger Todd · Legend

But the photos of the model, if that is indeed what it is, show a 100% complete vehicle, whereas nowhere has anyone ever stated that a real vehicle was completed - only 'almost completed' (whatever that means - after all, some writers have claimed that Britain's Flying Elephant was 'almost complete', which it wasn't). Granted there's no proof that the object in the photos is only of a model. However, one can infer that it is. Real AFVs of the period are positively festooned with hundreds of rivets - not simply along the edges of panels, but all over, in all sorts of seemingly unexpected places. The K-Wagen is not. It has distinctly few rivets, which is what might expect on a model, as it only needs enough to hang together, but not the real thing, which needs to be tough.

Ian Armstrong · Sergeant

Please flesh this postout further, but I beleive that the "A7" denoted the number for the military transport department.

Therefore, an "A8V" might well have been a "Veterans medical inspectorate armoured vehicle"

Somewhat more ridiculous than the Treffasswagen?

Tim R · Hero

Hello

There have been some recent speculations, that there was a paper project by the name A8V.� Of course this is all hypothetical, but it has been rumored that the A7V was to be up armed, in a way resembling the British tanks, i.e. side guns located in sponson. Of course ideas were laid down, adding British sponsons to an excising A7V, but the most logical was to add the sponsons from the ill fated A7V-U.

Hypothetical but possible.

All the Best

Tim R.

James H · Legend

Hmmm. Interesting theory, Tim, but I must protest. Ian is correct. A7V stands for Allgemeines Kriegsdepartement, 7. Abteilung, Verkehrswesen - General War Department, 7th Division, (Means of) Transport. So the 7 refers to the Division, not the model number. A new model produced by the Division would have something tagged on the end, as with the A7Vu. Maybe A7Vn/A, or A7VC or A7VK (for Casematte or Kasematte, sponson)

Other mildly interesting points. A7V would, according to the rules, be pronounced "Ah Zeeb'n Fow". I don't think anyone has mentioned that before.

And Verkehr also means "intercourse", in both the sense of communication and the other one. Unfortunate, that.

Tim R · Hero

Hello James

You are correct, but I am only stating what has been spread around. Its not my theory; I only based my drawing on what others have suggested.

All the Best

Tim R.

James H · Legend

Tim, I quibble not with your imagineering, which is brilliant, merely with the nomenclature, which it seems was someone else's idea in the first place. It appears that no amount of tinkering was too much in the attempts to rescue this�vehicle. Why not shove another eight men inside? The more the merrier.

rdmcii · Corporal

I was wondering if the thing Tim drew, and called A8V, might be the thing I've seen called " �berlandschlachtschiff auf A7V-Fahrgestell" on german forums when they discuss A7V varients, I know it's not the A7V-U, cause it is mentioned in addition. If not, what the heck is the �berlandschlachtschiff ?

Bob