Landships II

But the relationship between the call sign and the name does not change when the tank is replaced  (eg. C47 Conqueror is replaced with C47 Conqueror II) For C23 Cynio to become C23 Crusty would require both the original Cynio and Crusty to be lost at Ypres and the new C23 to be given the name Crusty without adding a II! And what then happened to any new C24? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

I agree that there is no strict 1:1 relationship between a tank's name and the call sign.

Incidentally, I'm not sure that call sign is a good name for these numbers, since it implies that tanks could be contacted using their call sign and I'm not sure that's the case.

The contemporary name for these numbers (seen on numerous WW1 documents at The National Archives and at Bovington) is crew number. I think that the original official intention was the serial identified the tank and the crew number the crew. Commanders and their crews complicated matters by introducing names, so officialdom stamped on that by making sure that from Arras they all started with the company letter. Since crews (or at least their officers) are linked to tank names and the crew numbers are (supposed to be) linked to crews there might appear to be a relationship between crew numbers and names, but I don't think it's that simple.

The crew number system just didn't work well, as crews sustained casualties, or transferred between one tank and another as a result of breakdowns etc. Eventually tank crews didn't realise/remember/care that the crew numbers referred to them and not the tank, since soldiers are not administrators and even if they were they had more pressing things to think about. So everything got confused, and it still is today.

At least, that's my interpretation.

Hi I might also point out that Conqueror II doesnt seem to have the II on the pic posted earlier.....so why should Crusty II have the II......

It would be appreciated if a link to the relevant post on GWR was posted as I cant find it, many thanks

On another note I just noticed that C41 has a number visible 2395 I think....

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:33, 2007-05-06

-- Edited by Ironsides at 01:54, 2007-05-06

Rhomboid wrote:

---

... In August there is no C21 tank listed; C22 is named Curmudgeon, C23 is Cynio (Cynic?) and C24 is Crusty. In November, C21 is named Curmudgeon II, C22 is Cynic, C23 is Crusty and no C24 tank is listed. 

---

I noticed this in the posted list at GWF and thought the same thing especially as C33 is listed amongst the other animal names as Crustagean rather than Crustacean, and C54 is Chaticleer instead of Chanticleer. I think the original name would be Cynic rather than Cynio. A transcription error at any point between then and now would easily explain this.

Hi all, I just posted this on the GWF and thought it best to post it here as well with a few small changes for clarity.....

Apparantly Crusty C24 broke down and didnt take part in the battle of the 21/23rd August 1917 this refers to an ORBAT for that date posted on GWF...
  
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Steve thanks for the info if "Crusty" survived and it seems likely that is the case, I suspect that the photo of C24 crusty was taken at the time of the differential failure, the tank is positioned astride an obstacle apparantly parked.......
In the absence of visible wd numbers on paper or in pictures there may be one othere explanation to the apparant duplication of names... and Crusty isnt the only tank involved, that would be that by Cambrai several tanks have aquired new "call Signs" apparantly during a battalion reshuffle intended to spread the surviving tanks with experienced crews plus repacements out more evenly bettween the companys or for some other reason not yet clear.... I stress this is a theory ...the following is No 8 company no 5 section on the 20/11/17

CURMUDGEON II C.21 no. 2061 (M) 2/Lt. R.L.N. Cubean-previously C22

CYNIC C.22 no. 2731 (F) 2/Lt. D.F. Brundrit- previously C23

CRUSTY C.23 no. 2021 (M) 2/Lt. H.W. Ashforth-previously C24

Other changed call signs in C Batt are as follows:

CELTIC C.8 no. 2044 (M) 2/Lt. VS. ?adham* illegible on original doc C.8 may be in error as previously C.18

CELE(B)RITY II C.26 no. 2888 (F) Lt. J.H. List - replacement for Celebrity C.29

CENTAUR II C.27 no. 2383 (M) 2/Lt. E.C. Wood - replacement for Centaur C.36

CROCODILE II C.34 no. 2877 (F) 2/Lt. R.J. Rew - replacement for Crocodile C.31?

CATERPILLAR II C.31 no. 2400 (F) 2/Lt. A.D. Adams- replacement for Caterpillar C.34

These may not be all as I havent as yet put together a comparison table but its clear that there is no connection bettween the the name, callsign and commander maybe there was at the begining but not by Cambria at least in C Batt......
Although it should be said that some commanders are still commanding tanks of the same name or/and callsign and there replacements.......

   -------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a result I would suggest that C 23 and C24 Crusty are one and the same tank.......

Cheers

-- Edited by Ironsides at 22:53, 2007-05-08

Centurion wrote:

---

I know that its said that G&G is based on the Cambrai ORBAT but has anyone actually seen the original document? Presumably its also at Kew.

---

Hi Centurion I think that should be documents as the Orbat from G+G seems to be a compilation from an unknown number, perhaps their all listed in an appendix..... I only have the Orbat curtousy of Rhomboid( many thanks again) and the book is unfortunatly as rare as hens teeth
I suspect that finding all the original paperwork that went into the Orbat would take a fairly major amount of research in itself.......I have to say I'm impressed

There are however many gaps so still plenty of scope for new info...

curiously enough on the orbat the reserve section for G batt has six tank with names all begining with E then G61-66.....Eldorado II G66 etc

Theres also two tanks named Amazon A.47 no 2840 and Amazon II  A.56 no 2885

Cheers


-- Edited by Ironsides at 02:43, 2007-05-10