Landships II

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Home Forces or training numbers, or what you will

Mark Hansen · Legend

Gwyn Evans wrote:

Of course!!! But there's a funny thing - where's my copy gone...? I might have to bother the librarian after all.

I find this happens often. I need to refer to a book that I am sure was in the bookcase (or more likely, in a pile nearby) only to find that it has vanished from the house. Methinks books have developed the intelligence to run and hide and the humour to appreciate rising blood pressure!

Mark Hansen · Legend

I have found an inconsistency with one tanks number but probably easily explained as a literal cover-up. It's the presentation tank that went to Llandudno. In the Pathe filmclip it states the tanks number to be 27. In the clip the tank comes past and the number does seem to be 27 but on a Mk IV female complete with unditching rails and what appears to be remnants of the W-R-W recognition stripes on the horn. The cover up part is the posters on the tanks side.
Any ideas as to what Llandudno's presentation tank HS number was?

I've attached screenshots from the clip showing the title board and the tank.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 07:11, 2007-08-30

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Fascinating Mark.

This is the first information I have seen on Llandudno's tank. I can only say that its number wasn't 270 as we know that went to Milnrow, Rochdale (see another thread somewhere on this forum).

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans at 22:20, 2007-08-30

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Feeling spurred on to search, I found this photo of the Llandudno tank, but it doesn't help any.

Gwyn

Mark Hansen · Legend

I rediscovered this clip while looking for a shot of the port side of "Whiskey and Soda". I only just got the Osprey "British Mark IV Tank" and one photo was captioned that it "...may have been a rare example of a Mark IV hermaphrodite with a male sponson on the starboard side." I knew I had seen a photo of the port side and went looking. Only just found the port side image and it wasn't a hermaphrodite - the port side has a male sponson as well.

Centurion · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

I rediscovered this clip while looking for a shot of the port side of "Whiskey and Soda". I only just got the Osprey "British Mark IV Tank" and one photo was captioned that it "...may have been a rare example of a Mark IV hermaphrodite with a male sponson on the starboard side." I knew I had seen a photo of the port side and went looking. Only just found the port side image and it wasn't a hermaphrodite - the port side has a male sponson as well.

I havn't got the Osprey yet but I'm confused which side does the books photo show and why do they think the other side is different?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

The Osprey shows that the starboard sponson of "Whiskey and Soda" was Male.� The angle from which the photo is taken leaves the port sponson completely out of view, but looking at it one gets the impression that if it was a Male sponson on the port side you should be able to see it.� Possible explanation: it had a port Female sponson�and�thus would be a Composite/Hermaphrodite.

There is the possibility of course that Mark's photo was taken at a different time to the one�that appears�in the Osprey.� Mark's photo might be a Male but before the tank was converted to�a Composite, as seen in the Osprey photo.� Who knows?�

Mark - am I supposed to be able to see an image in your post?

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans at 21:48, 2007-08-31

Mark Hansen · Legend

Gwyn Evans wrote:

...There is the possibility of course that Mark's photo was taken at a different time to the one�that appears�in the Osprey.� Mark's photo might be a Male but before the tank was converted to�a Composite, as seen in the Osprey photo.� Who knows?�

Mark - am I supposed to be able to see an image in your post?

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans at 21:48, 2007-08-31

Oops - forgot to attach the image. Here it is. It also appears in a clip but I can't find it at the moment. Not being a native or familiar with Ireland in 1919 I have to assume that it is seen in Ireland in this photo judging by the buildings.

P.S.: If I can find the filmclip I'll get a screen shot of it; the name is much clearer in the clip.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 23:57, 2007-08-31

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Thanks Mark.� Great photo.� I would be prepared to bet that the "Shannon View Cafe" would be in Ireland.� The River Shannon reaches the sea at Limerick.

Gwyn

Centurion · Legend

Not to mention that one of the men looking towards the camera looks like an officer (inspector or above) in the RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary).

Centurion · Legend

Gwyn
I'd think it unlikely that they would convert a Mk IV to composite as late as 1919 so I think that Marks photo is most likely to represent the tank's final state. Is it possible that in the Osprey phot (which I stll haven't seen) that the port sponson is merely retracted?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

It is quite possible that retraction of the Male sponson would give the tank the same appearance.��Quite a�plausible explanation in my view, so I think "Whiskey & Soda" is indeed a plain old Male (rather like me wink

).

Anyone know what unit this tank belonged to?� Was it 17th Battalion, the same unit that had the Whippets in Dublin?

Gwyn

P.S. I realise this has gone a bit off topic. Not sure how that happened.� Apologies to all.

Mark Hansen · Legend

Gwyn, I've got a Mk V male which has a Home Forces number to help round off your list. It's number is 502. It's in the background shot of a Medium B, which I've cropped out. Resolution is fairly low, but good enough to see the number.
The list as I think it stands should be:
Numbers below 100 - Mk I, II, and III tanks.
100's - Mk IV males.
200's - Mk IV females.
400's - Mk IV tenders.
500's - Mk V males.
600's - Mk V females.
700's - Mk V* males.
800's - Mk V* females.
900's - Mk V* males.

The only number missing from your list is the 300 series of numbers. Why? Who knows - perhaps it's a previously unknown superstition about having�tanks with�300 series numbers?

Gwyn Evans · Legend

That's fantastic Mark. Thanks very much - I think we can say we've cracked the code now.
The only mystery is the 300s. Perhaps there were too many Mark IV Females (i.e. over 100 tanks) and the 300s were used for the excess, but as ever evidence is what's needed.

Gwyn

-- Edited by Gwyn Evans at 14:51, 2007-10-20

Mark Hansen · Legend

It's probably just a case of waiting until a photo turns up with a tank with a 300 series number. I agree that it would most likely be a Mk IV female.�There probably weren't very many of them in the 300's however which would explain the current lack of photographic evidence.

P.S.: It might be an idea to recheck all two digit tanks to make sure they haven't had a number obscured like Llandudno's tank.

-- Edited by Mark Hansen at 23:29, 2007-10-20

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Good idea.

Gwyn

Mark Hansen · Legend

While checking photos for another thread, I came across a confirmation shot of 502. Can't say where or when it was taken (or even where I found it) but it is a lot clearer than the previous photo.

Gwyn Evans · Legend

If I'm not mistaken this is London, and the source is a photo archive in New Zealand.

Gwyn

MTorrent · Lieutenant-Colonel

Yes, the photo is taken in London, in a victory parade in late 1918.

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Hmmm ... I own a photo. It shows the number 515, but it is a Mark I, II or III (sorry, but still I didn't have time to take a closer look at it).

So how does this compare?

-- Edited by elbavaro on Thursday 3rd of November 2011 11:08:43 PM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Hi elbavaro

Where is the number on the tank? 515 is a Mark I Female serial number.

Is this the photo?

Gwyn

elbavaro · Commander in Chief

Yes, this it is! Bought it at ebay. ;o))

I think I remember someone posted all (?) serial numbers of all produced marks I-V. Or am I wrong? Was it here?

-- Edited by elbavaro on Friday 4th of November 2011 11:24:19 PM

Gwyn Evans · Legend

I don't know if anyone has posted all the serial number ranges on this site. Sorry. Try searching on "serial".

Gwyn

compound eye · Colonel

Digging this one up, after recent trawls regarding tank serials, names & unit IDs.

There is very detailed information online cross referencing the above info, BUT does anyone know of a list which cross references serial numbers with 'training' or 'home forces' numbers at all? If such information exists it would, in theory, be possible to trace an individual tank from manufacture to unit issue. & naming. Hence you could model a tank at one of several points in its life.

I am very interested in modelling a Mk.IV Female without unditching rails, and that either means a/ training/home forces with 3 digit number, b/ very early unit issued tank before rails became standard, c/ a Gaza 'special' [i.e. anything goes in Gaza].

Gwyn Evans · Legend

Well, yes, I have such lists. My "Serials" database does allow me to trace the history of individual vehicles. It wasn't originally designed for that purpose, but it does do that (and a lot of other things it wasn't actually designed to do). But to model a tank at a specific point doesn't need a database, you need photographs. If your wish is to find photographs of a Mark IV Female without rails but with a training number I suggest you find a presentation tank that fits the bill and model that. Most of those were ex-training machines and many were extensively photographed.

Gwyn

compound eye · Colonel

The instance where a database would be useful though, is where either serial number or training number are obscured or not discernable/included in the photo. This thread demonstrates just how good folk were at getting in the way of tank markings - like flies round the proverbial.