Landships II

Gordon,

'Service Colour' is given in British War Department documents, published inter-war just prior to WWII, as 'Deep Bronze Green' (British Standard Colour No. 24 of 1931). Though it may not be the same colour you refer to. Your reference to a pre-WWI colour is very interesting. Can you please give more details?

Cheers,
Mark.

-- Edited by Mark Mackenzie at 04:18, 2007-05-26

The paint mixes that I've been looking at are given in the Handbook for Military Artificers, 1910 and are the same in the 1915 issue which differs in some other respects.

The colour for artillery carriages, engineer transport and other transport vehicles is described as Lead Colour and is a straightforward mixture of white (white lead) and black (lamp black).  The instructions say that a lighter colour can be mixed by reducing the amount of black used.  In the notes for this colour in the 1915 edition, it is said that this colour is not used on SA Ammunition carts and wagons which are painted in Service Colour.  The 1910 edition says that they are painted brown.  The notes for Service Colour in both editions say that it is used only on small arm ammunition carts and wagons.  This might suggest that Service Colour was a shade of brown but might equally mean that the colour used on these vehicles had changed.  The standard of proof reading in both editions is poor and odd details have not been corrected so either interpretation might be valid.

The complete mix for Service colour is this.

Ground white lead  38lbs
Stone ochre  26lbs 8ozs
Burnt Turkey Umber  9lbs 8ozs
Ground lamp black  12ozs
Prussian blue  12ozs
Patent driers  9lbs 8ozs
Raw linseed oil  2 galls 1 quart
Turpentine 3.5 quarts (ie 7 pints)

This mix produces 1cwt of colour.

A second mix is given for Waterproof Service Colour for Canvas Covers.  This is the same as the mix above except that the proportions have changed slightly and the raw linseed oil and turpentine are replaced by boiled linseed oil, yellow soap and water.

In all, there are 16 mixes covering 8 colours. 

The problems in working out what colours these mixes produce are that the densities of the dry pigments are not known so that the actual volumes used are unknown and the effect of the liquid media on the final colour is not known.  It appears that the media used affect the final colour to some extent because they are not colourless in themselves and I think that this accounts for the change in the pigment proportions in the waterproof mix where the liquid media are different.

Gordon McLaughlin
 

The problems in interpreting these colours are the same as those involved with PC10.  There, too, dry pigments were used and the liquid media used affected the final colour.  Fortunately, it was possible to mix PC10 from the original mix for use in restoring preserved aircraft in museum collections and so the colour is broadly established.  As far as I know, this has not been done with land colours.

The handbook gives mixes for eight colours and does not always specify their use.  Some of the paint mixes are highly specialised but others might be used for almost anything.  The colours are Lead (grey), Stone, Service Colour, Red, Black, White, Chocolate and Green.  Of these, only Stone seems definitely to be intended for concealment.  The red pigment used is Venetian Red which is a brownish colour akin to rust red.  The green pigment is Brunswick Green which is rather too blue in hue to be a camouflage colour.  Chocolate might be a camouflage colour but its use is not given.

There are two mixes for Stone Colour.  The first is this.

Ground white lead  4lbs
Stone ochre  ½oz
Turkey umber  1oz
Patent driers  6¼oz
Raw linseed oil for mixing  1lb 6ozs.

Notes accompanying this mix say,"The colour may be varied by the quantity of Turkey umber employed.  A common stone colour can be made without adding ochre."  This suggests that the colour is not intended as a fixed standard colour and this impression is strengthened by the notes for the second mix.

The second Stone Colour mix is intended for use on the shields and barrel casings of Maxim guns.  The mix is this.

Ground white lead  1lb 2ozs
Burnt umber  1.33ozs
Spruce ochre  6ozs
Patent driers  2.67ozs
Varnish, gold size  1/8th pint
Boiled linseed oil  1/6th pint
Turpentine  1/6th pint.

The notes say that this will be enough to apply one coat to the barrel casings of eight Maxim guns.  One pound of this mix will coat the front surface of the shields of eight guns.  The notes also say,"The colour of the paint may be varied to suit local conditions, such as background &c."  This strongly suggests that it is regarded as a camouflage colour.  The high proportion of white lead would make this a very pale colour and it would be reasonable to think of it as a desert colour. 

The notes refer to varying the shade of the Lead, Stone, Chocolate and Green paints but don't say what the Chocolate and Green were to be used for.

There is nothing in the instructions to indicate whether the paints were matt or gloss in finish and there is no reference to varnishing them although mixes for clear varnishes are given.  Camouflage and concealment are not specifically mentioned.  The 1915 edition says that vehicle markings are to be applied in white; the 1910 edition doesn't specify a colour.

I don't know when the first edition of the handbook was issued.  It is quite possible that these colours are Victorian in origin although they appear in the 1915 edition without change.  Surprisingly, the 13pr and 18pr field guns are mentioned in relation to the lettering of their carriages and ammunition wagons but the only colour mentioned for artillery carriages is Lead Colour.  I have always thought that these guns were finished in dark, gloss green rather than grey.

Gordon McLaughlin

Thanks for the extract from the Osprey book.  I haven't seen this series but I'll look out for them.

On the subject of Service Colour, I have a copy of BS987 of 1942 which includes a colour swatch labelled Service Brown.  This is simply one of the SCC browns with a coat of gloss varnish applied over it.  Surprisingly, it is very similar to the Humbrol gloss enamel, No. 2 in their range I think, called Service Brown.  It may be that the term Service Colour acquired a different meaning in later years. 

I was prompted by your reference to Olive Drab and your earlier reference to PC10 to look again at the pigments in PC10.  The main pigments in PC10 are Ochre and Lamp Black in the ratio 17 to 1 by weight.  The same pigments occur in Service Colour in the ratio 35 to 1.  This would suggest a lighter, yellower colour than PC10.  Both PC10 and Service Colour contain Prussian Blue but SC also contains a quantity of Burnt Umber which is a mid brown which might make it even less green than PC10.  In addition, the main pigment in SC, by weight, is white lead.  In fact, the white lead weighs slightly more than all the other pigments combined.  This might produce a paler yellow-brown when compared with PC10.  On the other hand, this is all guess work and the colour might be nothing like that.

On the general subject of vehicle colours, it would be interesting to know how colours were specified and "announced" in WW1.  I gather that Army Council Instructions (ACIs) were used in WW2 to announce colour changes and I wonder if something similar existed in WW1.  Alternatively, it may be that the List of Changes was used. 

Which edition of the Handbook does the AWM have?

Gordon McLaughlin

Thanks for your message.

I haven't seen any of Mike Starmer's work as I've been rather out of touch with the subject of WW2 colours.  It was a subject that I researched in the late 1970's and I wrote one or two articles in Centurion on camouflage and markings. I gather that Starmer has sorted out the colours used in the Caunter camouflage which  is good going.  I'll look out for his books.

I was looking at the AWM site yesterday and came across a couple of watercolour paintings of MT.  It's never a good idea to rely on these paintings as the artist often modifies colours to suit his purposes  but I was interested to see that one showed the lorries  in brown and the other showed them in grey although the  colours of the tilts varied.  The only colour photograph that I know of shows a light brown. 

As I live in Northumberland, I can't get to the PRO, IWM or most other national research facilities.  Thank heaven for the Internet!

Gordon McLaughlin

I thought I had the answers to your questions at my fingertips.  Instead, I can't find my copies of Centurion and the list that I had has likewise disappeared.  The articles were no great shakes, dealing with points of detail for the most part.

The colour photograph appears on a web site and I had the URL stored on the computer but seem to have deleted it accidentally.  I have found the site again and the URL for the relevant page is:

http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Marne_Color/Marne_Color_10.htm

It shows an ambulance in overall brown and a single decked Daimler bus in civilian colours with a red cross on a white disc painted near the side door.  The site in which the pictures appear is well worth visiting and has some fascinating material in it.

Gordon McLaughlin

Very interesting photographs.

What colour is it?  I can't make it out.

Gordon McLaughlin

Hi Gordon I thought it might be an idea to see if the pigments for the recipe for service colour is actually available, the problem really is in identifying the actual pigments used rather then the fineness or density since different mines will give different shades of colour...
I e-mailed kremer Pigment well known specialists in the field  of colour restoration and here is their reply apparantly from Dr kremer :



-- Edited by Ironsides at 22:26, 2007-07-17

Gordon:

Today I tried producing the WWI colours following the mixes given in the "Handbook for Military Artificers". The paint I used was acrylic with names corresponding to the pigments given in the handbook. Very crude I know!

The five camouflage colours in the handbook are Lead, Stone Colour, Service Colour, Chocolate and Brunswick Green. (excluding black, white and red and alternate varnish mixes etc for the above colours). The lead and green are self explanatory. The Stone Colour paint turned out to be similar to 1930 B.S.381C Portland Stone i.e. a light yellowish-brown with a green tinge. Service Colour was a brown-green colour and Chocolate was a red-brown colour ... I suspect these last two colours were similar to PC10 and PC12 respectively as the pigment ingredients are similar.

Service Colour was a surprise as I had expected it to be more Brown. The main ingredients are white, ochre, black and umber with a touch of Prussian blue. Black and Ochre together produced a Dark Green colour. The umber (a dark brown) led to the brown-green colour.

Regards,
Mark Mackenzie

Interesting post. I've been looking into colours for painting my model of a Mk1 Tank, this I've decided to paint in its original Grey scheme.

Looking around I came across a simple ratio way of organising greys. which basically went... White 2 x Black 2, White 4 x Black 2, White 6 x Black 2.

Anyhow, the reason for my posting this, is that Lamp Black when mixed with white can produce either a brownish or blueish hue depending on the manufacturer. So this is basically another variable to take account of when deciding on a final colour. 

Helen x

 

THE OLD LANCER wrote:

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I would look at battleship grey as this would have been the most common colour in the Royal Navy at this time.

THE OLD LANCER

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Although painting it in a Warship grey was tempting, I came to the conclusion that although being Navy led and called Landships at first, as 'Water Tanks' they would more likely be painted in either a WD Grey for Road Trucks or Railway Wagons. I feel Fosters would be more likely to use a Ministry Department Grey as apposed say the Mid Grey preferred by the Royal Navy at that time.

This is just my opinion and I don't have any evidence to support my decision. Just a feeling. 

Helen x

Richard (SA Military Museum) wrote:

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Hi Guys, I don't usually  get involved in forums but the following may help.  I was looking for info on Cart, water, tank Mk I. List of Changes no 12951 of 8 Dec 1901 refers to LoC 12894 in regard to painting the water cart in Service  colour.

LoC 12894 of 4 July 1905 states: With reference to numbers 10192, 10977: - In future paint of a drab colour which will be known as "Service colour "will be issued for painting all guns, carriages vehicles and stores, which hitherto been painted khaki colour.

Existing stores &c, hitherto painted khaki, at home stations, will be painted the "Service colour" at the next periodical painting.  officers concerned will therefore demand sufficient paint of "Service colour"  to meet their requirements and return to store, for transmission to Woolwich, any surplus stock of Khaki-coloured paint. The lettering of all vehicles painted "Service colour" will be in black paint. The foregoing will also apply to stations abroad when the existing stocks of khaki paint at those stations have been used up.  

 

 

  

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Richard

I realise this a quite an old thread but I would be interested in obtaining a copy of these entries on the List of Changes, particularly LofC 12894 of 4 July 1905 which is not available in the UK.

Regards

Andrew