Landships II

Caption doesn't magnify very well at this size, but it says German gun of 149mm, Krupp, then what looks like L46, which makes no sense to me. It looks v. like the Schwerer Feldhaubitze 13 L/14. Compare with here:

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/sFH13_kurz.htm

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/sFH13.htm


J

-- Edited by James H at 21:35, 2007-11-19

The weapon system illustrated is the Krupp built Russian 12.2cm Model 1909.   This howitzer, along with the Schneider version, was the standard Russian Corp piece of 1914. (These weapons were part of an impressive array carried in Krupp's foreign sales catalogue.  Interestingly, it outperformed the 10,5cm lFH 98/09 that the German Army was supplied with.)

28juni14 wrote:

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The weapon system illustrated is the Krupp built Russian 12.2cm Model 1909.   This howitzer, along with the Schneider version, was the standard Russian Corp piece of 1914. (These weapons were part of an impressive array carried in Krupp's foreign sales catalogue.  Interestingly, it outperformed the 10,5cm lFH 98/09 that the German Army was supplied with.)

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Just another suggestion; since the caption seems to be all over the place, could it be this Romanian piece, or is this too late?

Skoda 149mm Model 28 (NOa):
Cal: 149.1 L46.5
Max Range: 23,800m
Shell Weight: 56kg

That sounds fair enough to me. I bow to your knowledge.

Dear Capitan Print,

Please refer to the last series of pics.  The first illustration is an old John Batchelor drawing which is not entirely accurate.  The second depicts the Krupp 122mm M09, while the third is a picture of the Schneider 122mm M09.  The last photograph again is of the Krupp M1909 in 122mm.   The Russians purchased numbers of both guns from Germany and France.   Both saw service in the Great War, with the Krupp version seeing wider use as additional numbers were manufactured by Putilov (who had purchased a license from Krupp before hostilities).  To further confuse the issue , a third model, of Russian design and produced in limited numbers by Obuchov, also saw service.

I might add that the Germans had great respect for Ruski gunnery.  One can only speculate what their success might have been had the war started a few months later.  In August 1914 Russian Divisional artillery had no organic howitzer batteries.  They were all held at Corp level.  The planned divisional reorganization was to  include 122mm howitzers, while Corp retained 152mm howitzers.

Hi Gerd I'm assuming that you mean this book :

"Purnell's History of the World Wars special, The Big Guns, Artillery 1914-1918"
you can get a copy here although its from 1973...

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?bi=0&bx=off&ds=30&kn=artillery+1914+1918&sortby=3&sts=t&tn=Purnell%27s+History+of+the+World+Wars+special&x=60&y=9

I dont know the german title or even if it was produced in german altough I think I may have seen a copy... 
I remember these well but I would never rate the drawings or even the text as bieng particularly accurate but for the 70's they were excellent...more of a nostalgia piece ....

Cheers

Hello, Jack!

Please refer to the last series of pics.  The first illustration is an old John Batchelor drawing which is not entirely accurate. 

Well, I see! Then, the picture of J.Batchelor was simply an artist impression about a light field howitzer of the WWI time and very the same gun didnt exist in metal in general? Finally I just can mention that in Russian magazine Technika Molodyezhy (# 11/1986), where the 2nd image was published in headband, one could read the following: field howitzer of the Russian Army on the firing position. Painted from the comprehensive photo (1916). Does such a photo exist anywhere? Nobody knows! Nevertheless the gun on these pics has two special features (break gear with its handle in front of the right wheel and side sector plate of the gunsight port cover on the gun shield, see attached image) both of that make it dissimilar to any well-known howitzer models of the time. These were the features that caused my question.
http://www.fortification.ru/library/artmuseum/172_176.php
 
The second depicts the Krupp 122mm M09, while the third is a picture of the Schneider 122mm M09.  The last photograph again is of the Krupp M1909 in 122mm.   The Russians purchased numbers of both guns from Germany and France.   Both saw service in the Great War, with the Krupp version seeing wider use as additional numbers were manufactured by Putilov (who had purchased a license from Krupp before hostilities).
 
You are not quite right here. There were two new models of the 48-lin* (122 mm) field howitzers in service of the Russian artillery just before WWI:
- m/09 (Krupp);
- m/10 (Schneider).
* - lin   from Russian measure liniya = 1/10 of inch.
http://www.landships.freeservers.com/122mm_m10_info.htm
As one can read the history of these guns, in 1907-1908 there was a contest in Russia for delivery of 122 mm LFG to Army artillery units. Main gun manufacturers of Russia and Germany such as Krupp, Ehrhardt, Putilov and Obuhov took part in the competition with their models. Finally, the Krupp model was chosen the best and ordered for Russian artillery.

But some short time later the Schneider model of 122 mm howitzer was adopted and became m/10.

The reason of introducing of these two different but similar in effectiveness howitzer designs to production lays in the sphere of the French-Russian close relations, when somebody of the members of the ruling Tsar family acted as the Russian lobby of the Schneider firm.

Just one question remains. Where had the howitzer models of the other participants of the tender got to? For example, test models of the German 28 cm heavy mortars of Krupp & Ehrhardt, delivered to Russia for evaluation just before the outbreak of the WWI, were confiscated and included in special TAON** battery and sent to Russian German front.

So may be the Ehrhardt export model of the 122 mm howitzer (2 pieces) was leaved in Russia and later sent to frontline due to luck of artillery also, and we can see it on the Jonn Batchelor picture?
** TAON     tyazholaya artilleriya osobaga naznacheniya     russian designation of the heavy artillery during WWI. Special purposes heavy artillery.

To further confuse the issue , a third model, of Russian design and produced in limited numbers by Obuchov, also saw service.

Do you mean 122mm light howitzer m/04?

TTFN

Mike.

-- Edited by Capitan Print at 08:37, 2007-11-24

Hallo Mike ,

the unknown field howitzer at Strassburg is the german 150mm field-howitzer 1902

or better s.F.H. 02 barrel length in calibers 12. range : 7450 meters

Factured by Krupp

Cheers

Gerd

Ah... Captain Print,   Forgive me, but you appear to answer much of your own questions !  You obviously have done a good deal of research to support your exceptions to my remarks.  You are quite right to point out my typing misnomer; the Schneider was indeed the M1910.
The Bathelor illustration of the M1909 shows the gunner's apperature in the splinter shield open, while the surviving speciman pictured to the right simply has it closed.  The inaccuracy of his drawing lies in the splinter shield itself.   Note the actual piece has additional armour shrouded around the rohr that rises seperately from the rest of the shield as the weapon is elevated.   The Batchelor drawing omits this detail entirely. 
May I ask where the pictured howitzer is located ?  I have been searching for surviving examples of  both the protze, and munitionswagen that supported the weapon.  

Hi, Jack!

28juni14 wrote:

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Ah... Captain Print,   Forgive me, but you appear to answer much of your own questions !  You obviously have done a good deal of research to support your exceptions to my remarks.  You are quite right to point out my typing misnomer; the Schneider was indeed the M1910.

---

Thank, you!

The Bathelor illustration of the M1909 shows the gunner's apperature in the splinter shield open, while the surviving speciman pictured to the right simply has it closed.  The inaccuracy of his drawing lies in the splinter shield itself.   Note the actual piece has additional armour shrouded around the rohr that rises seperately from the rest of the shield as the weapon is elevated.   The Batchelor drawing omits this detail entirely.

Well, I see! But I'll try to post several pics of the M1909, that clearly show the splinter shield open without any side plate.
And what about break handle? It's the artist dream at all?

May I ask where the pictured howitzer is located ?  I have been searching for surviving examples of  both the protze, and munitionswagen that supported the weapon.

As far as I know the howitzer alone is located at St. Petersburg Artillery Museum inside the building.  

Hello Gerd!

maybe the barrel was shortened a litle bit by restoring -be shure it is a m/02 version.
The first small pic under the big main photo at landships (left side )shows nearly the same position as your picture on the right side. Also the tecnical details are the same .

Well, for shure! My suggestion that there is a version of m/02 but not the standart sFH 02 in "Mutzig" fort was quite right! Compare the barrels, the cradles and the brake gear position of the guns. But what a version it is? S.F.H. 02/-?

Will go to Strassbourg soon as i can to viit the "Mutzig " fortification
Have allready send mail for request about this gun -if it is standing almost there .

Well! If you'll be so kind! My mail: mlgrif44@ya.ru

TTFN

Mike.

-- Edited by Capitan Print at 21:11, 2007-11-30

-- Edited by Capitan Print at 21:12, 2007-11-30

Hello Mike !

Haven't got an answer from Fort Mutzig till today. The officiall opening-time is from
march till september. So it will take some months i can go for a visit.
I can'see a difference from cradle and so on. i assume that the brakes on a drawing
i have in a the book from Linnenkohl shows the position behind the wheel .
That isn't a point for wondering . Frontrepairing sections didn't took care of pattern
in the trouble of battles. They had to make the guns clear to serve again however-
not for a rivets counting community.
The best example áre the last two years of the II WW on germann site - all sort of guns
on allsort of vehicles.
Allso damaged barrel muzzles were repaired by cutting to meassures which didn't
change precission too much . Mostly the question had to be answered :
Can she fire ? Yes -than back to the front !

So far

Gerd

Hello Mike ,

Very good researched--never saw this version of the Krupp howitzer before.

Thank's allot !

Best regards
Gerd

Or, may be there were Chineese.

-- Edited by Capitan Print at 19:50, 2007-12-02

Hi, All!

Thank you for your asweres!

But, may be anybody have or see such a book:
Artillerie im 20. Jahrhundert (Artillery in the 20th Century) by Franz Kosar , 297p, German Text, 2004, Bernard & Graefe Verlag, ISBN 3-7637-6249-3

They said there indeed almost all models of the field artillery pieces are described!

TTFN

Mike.

Hi, Aleksandr!

Nothing to say more. I think, that artist made mistake and mixed 2 similar systems - Russian 48-lin and German 15-cm, both from Krupp.
I can attach some photos of  Russian 48-lin from St-Petersburg muzeum.


First of all, thank you for your photos!

Second, I whouldn't like to believe in the artist mistake with the gun, but if everybody thinks it was, so it was!

Finally, I'd just like to know were there any guns with such cover plate of sight ambrasure consisted of two parts - front & leftside? 

 This is a commercial Krupp 15cm M-1904 or M-1906 field howitzer. Bulgaria, along with Turkey, Argentina and Sweden were the major users of this howitzer. Turkish howitzers were simply designated 15cm Howitzer L/14. The Argentine howitzers, in fact, seem to have formed the earliest commercial order, as they were designated M-1904. What one of these guns is doing in France is anyone's guess, as this one seems to be a Swedish M/06 (they lacked the shield found on Bulgarian M-1906s and on Turkish L/14s); perhaps it was bought surplus to add some flavor to the Mutzig site, or to stand in for a real 15cm sFH-02. Could someone perhaps on this site get the markings off this gun? For more info. on these guns please refer to my article "A Case of Mistaken Identity", which can be found at the botton of this page. A Case of Mistaken Identity - On the Krupp & Skoda 15cm'sby Wesley Thomas

 

Hi, All!

Now I'm looking for the photo of the 149G italian gun (?), wich was a base of the J. Batchelor old image in the J. Hogg "Artillery of the XX century" book. IMHO such a gun never existed in reality...

-- Edited by Capitan Print on Sunday 9th of March 2014 07:12:14 PM

-- Edited by Capitan Print on Sunday 9th of March 2014 07:13:27 PM

-- Edited by Capitan Print on Sunday 9th of March 2014 07:15:11 PM

What do you mean when you say "such a gun never existed in reality"?

Massimo