Landships II

There used to be some good shots of Flirt at Lincoln but these have vanished from the web and this is all there is
http://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/popup.asp?type=image&docId=51874&id=11388

This gives a panoramic view of the Ashford tank

http://www.bbc.co.uk/kent/content/panoramas/ashford_tank_360.shtml

Gwyn Evans wrote:

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I'm looking for photos of preserved Mark IVs.  Apart from Landships, can anyone recommend any sites?

I need, in particular, close-ups of the rear part of the roof, and the area around the track tensioners on both sides of the front horns.  I have good photos of these areas on the tank at the Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland, and also a good photo of one of the outside front horns on the Mark IV in Australia...

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I can help you with a view of the inner face of both horns from the AWM's Mk IV, as well as a few shots of the rear roof.

May one ask the purpose of this research?

Centurion wrote:

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May one ask the purpose of this research?

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It's a perfectly reasonable question. 

I have been interested for some time in Mark IV production, and trying to understand when different tanks were built, the differences between those produced earlier as opposed to those produced later, and differences between those produced in different factories.

Recently I noticed for the first time a circular pipe exiting the roof just to the port side of the exhaust on the Mark IV at APG.  It can also be seen on two of the photos Mark Hansen posted of the AWM Mark IV.  A hole in the right place appears to be present on Deborah.  But it doesn't appear on the Mark IV at Bovington.  Nor does it seem to be on Flirt II.  I don't know whether it's on the Ashford tank or the Brussels one.

I think that this is a vent for the later type cylindrical radiator.  There certainly was a vent - it's mentioned in a workshop report I have.  The Bovington Mark IV has a cylindrical radiator, but I suspect it didn't when it was built.  I'm thinking that Mark IVs with this feature were built with cylindrical radiators and those without it were built with envelope radiators.  But this is just a theory at this stage.  I have no proof of anything.

The interest in the front horns was to do with some letters that can be seen cast into the metalwork, though I'm having trouble reading them.  They're present on the AWM Mark IV (which was built by the Coventry Ordnance Works) and also on that at APG.  I am inclining towards the view that this is unique to Mark IVs built by COW and that I can therefore narrow the identity of the APG machine down to one of eleven Mark IV Females built by COW that were exported to the USA in 1918. 

But to emphasise - I've been wrong before and I could be wrong again.  These are just working hypotheses that I'm investigating.

Gwyn
 


-- Edited by Gwyn Evans at 23:46, 2008-08-10

Posting error  ignore

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-- Edited by Centurion at 00:18, 2008-08-11

The box is clearly visible in at least one of the war time photos of the tank in Australia.  However the view of the tank in Brisbane doesn't show it. I have seen no photo of such an addition on any other Mk IV. It would seem to be a specific mod for the Antipodean front

I would have thought that it ought to show up in the top right most shot in the Brisbane photos as the exhaust and the rear of the cab can be seen pretty well. I was wondering if it was added in the course of the Australian tour.

BTW where in Austalia is Unley? I see that the tank did demonstrations there on the Oval in early Sept 1918 and photos were published in  the local press. I have not seen these but they might shed some light.

Found two shots of the tank at Unley on the South Australia Library web site. One side/rear view does show the box/tank. http://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/searcy/09/PRG280_1_9_93.jpg

-- Edited by Centurion at 00:03, 2008-08-12

Gwyn Evans wrote:

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Centurion - I'm a bit puzzled by the roof hatch on Brittania (is it on one of them or both of them?). I note that the Mark IV Female that took part in the Lord Mayor's Parade in London in November 1917 also had one. One possibility that occurred to me is that a Mark IV Tender that had been fitted with Female sponsons would look exactly like Brittania. Now I have found one Tender that was so converted, but I don't have the details to hand. Excuse me, but it's late and I'm tired. I'll look it up and post again. I suppose what I'm saying is that it isn't proven that the cab roof hatch is a late Mark IV modification borrowed from the Mark V.

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I'd wondered about the possibility of a tender with female sponsons. I'd even considered the possibility that the Lord Mayor's female tank being shipped out to the States but the timing is all wrong for this. If the American tanks (and the evidence so far still leans to there being two) and the LM tank are all converted tenders then one wonders when Mk IV supply tanks were first delivered. The tables in The Devils Chariots suggest that factory conversions and builds were too late for  these tanks. There is a second factor - not all MkIV tender/supply tanks appear to have had roof hatches. I had assumed that those without hatches were Central Workshops conversions.
One question - would it be possible to fold a female sponson on a supply tank? - were there any internal fittings etc necessary for this? The only photos of the tank on tour in the US on a railway wagon show the sponsons unretracted which I would have thought unusual.
I never thought that "that the cab roof hatch is a late Mark IV modification borrowed from the Mark V" as the dates for the US and LM tanks are well before design was even finished on the MkV (as I've said before).


-- Edited by Centurion at 14:28, 2008-08-12

The photo at Shatuck (Kansas) was taken as the tank was stopped en route to California where it took part in expositions at San Francisco and Los Angeles. So I would assume that despite the open doors it was fastened down. I have also found a photo of the tank on a train at Fresno, apparently en route somewhere. The sponson is not retracted. It looks as if Sgt R V Burnside travelled with the tank and on some stops it was not unloaded but local dignatories were allowed to have a look supervised by the sergeant.

 Where and when was the photo you have taken? Any chance of a sight of it?

Thanks for this. It, as is often the case, asks more questions than it answers. I think the sponsons are part folded. It appears un camouflaged which is why it's a shame we don't know the date but the interesting thing is it appears to have the Aussie box behind the cab. I've not seen this on any of the other photos in N America.

I've heard this before from a number of sources including an e mail from David Fletcher wondering if it was one of the tanks that toured Canada! As far as I can tell from various Canadian sites (including asking the curator at Camp Borden) there is no Mk IV at Camp Borden nor has there ever been. It would seem that 'WW1 British tank ' (meaning the Medium A) has been mis interpreted as  a Mk IV. and once in circulation the misunderstanding has been very difficult to rectify)