Landships II

kkfj1 · Major

A fantastic German WWI tank

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

The "Oberschlesien" was the heavy tank that was to replace the captured Mk.IVs in 1919. A wooden model and some drawings are all that ever existed. A production of 400 "Oberschlesiens" had been planned for 1919.
The production model most probably would have looked somewhat different. The initial design used the "Orion Wagen" track system, this would have changed to A7V tracks in a fashion simular to the LK II.

-- Edited by mad zeppelin at 08:18, 2008-08-13

Centurion · Legend

This tank has been covered elsewhere in the forum. I post again the drawing I made using a number of sources.

I don't understand MZ's comments - the LK II did not use the A7V Holt based track system and Volmer himself was having doubts about it as it consistently clogged with mud. Combining the Holt system with the rhomboid shape as in the A7VU had already failed because of this.

Whether or not German industry had the necessary resources to build these tanks in any number is a moot point. A plan to build up to 300 copies of the MK IV put forward in Dec 1917 was abandoned for lack of engines and thin armour plate.

-- Edited by Centurion at 12:06, 2008-08-13

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

The LK II used scaled down A7V track plates (25 cm wide versus 50 cm wide). A� planning order for this alternative had already been given but came to nill because of the war's end. On the "Oberschlesien" the solution would have been something like the 50 cm wide track plates on an enlarged LK II frame.
The Mk.IV copy project was abandoned in favour of LK II production. By 1918, German companies were complaining that their capacity went unused. What problems using "Ersatz" would have created is quite another story.

Centurion · Legend

The Mk Iv plan was not abandoned in favour of LK production.� Captain Weger of the A7V comittee and Volmer's co designer states "Expert engineers were sent to Charleroi to study the captured tanks for ideas that could be applied to our own tank construction, Copying the English tank with some improvements was proposed. The amount of raw material, metal and reclaimed labour necessary was so great, that in view of the obtainable delivery number and delivery time, it was decided that the proposition would not pay.The motor question was particularly difficult as all that could be turned out were needed by the flying troops and by the artillery for tractors and could not be spared for anything else. The O.H.L was furthermore forced to curtail all new orders to a minimum on account of the reserve situation of the infantry. Hence this tank building scheme was, after long conferences, abandoned." Volmer was unable to persuade the A7V commitee to abandon the K wagon plan in favour of LKs. The production of the first twoprototype LKIIs was seriously delayed by the difficulties of getting parts.

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

This is the good old "and didn't we have the necessary resources" excuse that was propagated in the 1920ies when the formerly responsible persons had to explain why Germany had slept in tank development.
There was material enough two construct three fancy Paris Guns, there would have been material in plenty to build 2.000 or 3.000 tanks - if only someone would have recognised the importance of tanks.

Centurion · Legend

Wegner was writing right at the end of the war! They certainly didn't have the resources. There was a genuine engine famine in Germany with various arms all competing for the same production. Thats one reason for so many German fighter air craft designs right at the end of the war being based around the obsolescent 110 hp rotary as they just weren't able to produce inline engines in sufficient quantities. The sceme to motorize all the heavy artillery was never completely realised as Daimler could not fulfill the orders for tractors placed on them (and sub conractors etc failed to take up the load) because engine production was so stretched (and it takes time and resources to build new engine plants as well as work force of skilled employees and an established sub contractor sector to produce specialised parts). That's why there were no engines available to build tanks. I could go on (and on) about Germany's steel problems etc. The German industrial base was just not capable of bearing a sustained war effort. There's no such thing as an ersatz engine and you can't switch resources from Paris guns to building tanks - you need different factories, skills materials etc etc.

-- Edited by Centurion at 17:13, 2008-08-13

mad zeppelin · Commander in Chief

In German arms production "priority" was the� important� thing.� Those items that had� priority were produced to the detriment of those that hadn't.� Tanks only got some priority after Cambrai, but this was soon reduced again when it became clear that only a small number could be available for the March offensive.
Tanks really got priority since June, when the German Plan 1919 was drawn up - 4.000 LK and 400 Oberschlesiens, this in realisation that a favourable decision of the war was no longer possible in 1918.

Centurion · Legend

Even things like aircraft and artillery tractors which had priority couldn't get enough engines. You can't just magic these things out of the air by producing a plan with priority on the top. Moreover the Germans couldn't say limit supplies to the fliegertruppen to allow tanks to be produced - they were falling behind in aircraft numbers already.� In terms of the special�type of steel needed for tanks they were severely limited in production because of a lack of the alloys needed (being sourced from outside Germany) and proirity was already given to the production of artillery shells (which needed the same alloys) - so they would have the choice of reducing the shells today to get tanks tomorrow - just wasn't going to happen. Doesn't matter how you prioritise - if you haven't got enough to go round any way you're doomed.

kkfj1 · Major

Many thanks!