Landships II

James H · Legend

Strelets Winter Austrians . . .

huhncc · Major

Did the Austrians us the MG08/15? It looks like one of the figures is carrying one.

Centurion · Legend

More likely to be the Schwarzlose M7/12/16 which was the KuK equiv of the MG08/15. A heavy beast no less for one man to carry.

James H · Legend

Without the flashguard the Schwarzlose looks v similar to the 08/15.

Centurion · Legend

One quick clue is that the German gun had a bipod whist the KuK weapon had a small tripod. The casing of the main part of the gun (behind the barrel) is quite different. If time permits I'll try and do a drawing.

James H · Legend

And yet they can be confused: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=10850918

Centurion · Legend

Yes the danger is that you see what you expect to see and don't look too close. The very first picture in that thread shows a Schwartzlose not a Maxim and yet I went merrily chuntering on about Maxims when a cursory glance should have revealed the difference. One key recognition point is the curved end to the breech on the Schwartzlose. This gun had a very different mechanism to the Maxim with no breech lock and�a lubrication system that oiled each round before firing. The maximum range was considerably below that of the Maxim (the gun had to use a less powerful cartridge because the breech was only held in place by very powerful springs) but I think the rate of fire was higher. It was extremely difficult to produce a synchronisation system for it which is why most KuK aircraft armed with it had an over the wing mount.

James H · Legend

Quite so.

New evidence suggests that the M7/12/16 was purely an aircraft gun, without water jacket.�The M7/12 could be carried by two men each wearing a wooden framework on the back, one carrying the gun and the other the full-size tripod, the shield being dispensed with. However, in the search for greater mobility it was further lightened by the substitution of a smaller tripod, as shown in the earlier thread. Then, in an attempt to bring it closer to the 08/15, a new carrying frame was developed that doubled as a swivel-mount, a shoulder stock was added, and a bipod supplied to fit close to the muzzle.

The�prone man shows that arrangement, and could have saved more weight by removing his moustache. The second pic shows a man in something like the Strelets pose, but the position of his hands would indicate that he couldn't have fired it from the hip. I fear the Strelets pose owes more to heroic depiction than to actual events.

Centurion · Legend

If that was the case it seems odd that in 1917 the M7/12/16A� should be produced and kits issued to the armies in the field to up grade their (non?) existing M7/12/16s to the new standard (which had a higher rate of fire).�

James H · Legend

This is becoming more of a Schwarzlose thread than a Strelets.

I think we are agreed that the bipod mount was not exclusive to the 08/15. However, I can't find any mention of the 16 except as an aircraft gun. Christian Ortner of the Vienna Army Museum makes no reference to it being an infantry weapon (only to the 7/12), so I'd be interested to see the stuff about the upgrade.

Centurion · Legend

I think we need to beware of confusion between the MG 07/12 and the MG 12 and the MG 07/12/16 and the MG 16.

The standard ground MG 07/12 was used as an air weapon both with and without the water coolinig jacket. The MG 12 was a version originally produced for Greece that fired a 6.5mm bullet and was therefore lighter than the standard model. Again used both both and without the jacket. The MG 16 was the standard MG 07/12 without the jacket and with new grips and trigger arrangement for air use. The MG 07/12/16 was the standard MG 07/12 with a lightweight tripod or bipod, the original handles but an added padded butt. Some changes were made to the cooling system so that up to 1,200 round could be fired without the need to refill it, special 100 round belts were used. Some MG 07/12s in air use were�rebuilt and fitted �fitted with MG 16 handles and triggers, these were reclassified as� MG 16s (confused yet ? - just wait).� Some MG 07/12s in use in the air service were fitted with more powerful breech springs increasing the fire rate to 560/580 rpm�and Feuewerker Ludwig Kral then designed� modifications with even more powerful springs and an enhance blow back system to get it up to over 600 RPM. This was applied to both MG 16s and MG 07/12/16s built after its introduction and these were� designated as MG 16 a and MG 07/12/16a. The firm of Jacob Lohner &co of Wien produced kits for the upgrade of existing MG 16 and MG 07/12/16s to the new standard. Further enhancements were applied to MG16as to bring the rate up to 800 rpm but no alteration appears to have been made in the designation
Truely the KuK was a wonderful place - for the beaurocrat!

-- Edited by Centurion at 22:34, 2008-09-07

-- Edited by Centurion at 22:37, 2008-09-07

Centurion · Legend

Getting back to the models - I've never heard of either the MG08/15 or the MG07/12/16 being fired on the move as some Lewises were - too heavy and in the case of the MG 07/12/16 the handles and trigger being not suitable. However the introduction of the MG 12/07/16 allowed the fourth platoon of each infantry company to be set up as two light Mg sections, each with two guns and 36 men (inc one officer). I would guess if they were� changing position in a hurry one man might well carry the gun in the poise shown so as to be ready to open fire as soon as possible when the new position was reached. I wonder if the Strelets set is intended to represent half a light machine gun section?

-- Edited by Centurion at 21:34, 2008-09-08

James H · Legend

Well. I have tried to absorb the info about the 7/12, and I think I get it.

Robert Bruce claims that the 08/15 was sometimes fired on the move, but infrequently and with considerable difficulty. The Armies in Plastic Germans in Stahlhelm have a figure apparently firing one from the hip, and with no strap, but it's undersized and the fact doesn't really mean anything anyway.

Having tried to improve the pic of the Strelets figure, I think the bipod is too far from the muzzle and still can't make out what his hands are supposed to be doing. Of course, their Lewis in the Summer Russians is far too stubby.

You took the words out of my mouth, Cent, about the Schwarzlose in question; he does look like the man in the second pic, and would pass for someone simply moving the gun up with No. 2 in attendance. Unfortunately, the�desire for action poses would suggest that Strelets intend him to be firing it on the move.

Centurion · Legend

I've seen a photo of a section of Germans with an MG 08/15. They have something like two pairs of bicyle handle bars in tandem so that four men can carry it at the run� each using one hand.

James H · Legend

That cradle thing rings a bell.
�
Bruce says that 08/15 gunners were selected for their size and strength, and reports that in the trials that he conducted target shooting from the hip was reasonably successful and accurate. However, his fellow enthusiast wasn't able to manage more than a fast walk with the 43lb, nose-heavy weapon, and that wasn't under battle conditions.