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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Artillery -> We need to check the piece written on the 15cm K i.R. found in the artillery section again.
Post Info TOPIC: We need to check the piece written on the 15cm K i.R. found in the artillery section again.
SASH155


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We need to check the piece written on the 15cm K i.R. found in the artillery section again.
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confuseHere I go again beating a dead horse. I copied the piece in the artillery section on the 15cm K i.R. L/40/L45 into this post (the photos do not show here unfortunately). I am still debating about whether indeed any of the guns in these photos were an actual  "45" caliber type. Photos I have seen of confirmed L/45 15cm German naval guns show an ordnance totally different than the one I believed was L/45 in my earlier postings on this subject (the one I saw had a barrel built in three evenly stepped pieces, similar to that seen with the 17cm L/40 naval guns, rather than the form seen with these guns in the article). Ralph Lovett wrote to me yesterday and said Jack Mueller had written at length about the differences between these two different 15cm guns. I seem to remember someone (Jack Mueller?) having earlier written that the difference was simply that they were two different types of 40 caliber 15cm naval guns, one having been used in light cruiser main armament turrets (the one with top mounted recoil system and the long single step to the barrel???), and the other as secondary armament in barbettes on capital ships (the one with side mounted recoil cylinders and three short steps to the barrel??? or vice versa). In any event we need to revisit this issue and correct any disinformation (if any, and some would be my fault if so) perpetuated in the article so that it does not cause confusion in the future. We should incorporate the corrections in the article and finally put to rest this debate. On another subject, one of the photos in the article (the one in the far left corner of the small nine photo spread is a side view of a 13cm K (K-09) not of a 15cm K i.R.

The article follows:

Soon after stalemate had set in in he West, all warring parties realized that they badly needed to bolster their artillery, especially with heavier calibres. In Germany, as in most other coutries, naval and coastal defence guns were hurriedly taken from forts, fortifications and naval stores and placed on more or less improvised field carriages. The 15cm Feldkanone i.R. was one of these naval guns, originally made by Krupp. (The "i.R." is an abbreviation of "in Räderlafette", i.e. "on Wheeled carriage".) It came in two versions: the more common (and shorter) L/40 and the somewhat longer (see the small photo above) L/45. They can be told apart by the L/40 having a set of top-mounted cyliders above the breach and the L/45 instead having one cylinder on each side of the breach. Also note the steps in the barrel; the L/45 had three short ones of just ahead of the shield, that of the L/40 only had one long step like feature. (Thanks to Wesley Thomas for pointing this out.)

Artillery1_small.jpg 15cm_fk_ir_tiny.jpg15cm_SLK_pq_small.JPG
15cm_slk_44_small.jpg slk_888_small.JPG Caption on back: "Souvenir from my resting camp during the defensive battles at Verdun 1917" 15cm_irl_1_small.jpg 15cm_irl_3_small.jpg 15cm_irl_3_detail_small.jpg

german_135mm_kanone_small1.jpg

The result was a long-range cannon that was very powerful but also very heavy: it weighed no less than 11.820kg emplaced. To this came the bedding, that weighed some 7450kg! The gun was placed on a special ground platform which allowed it to traverse bodily, as the carriage didn't allow for any traverse. The naval cradle was dropped into the carriage, and then the carriage was anchored to the special firing platform as the naval recoil system could not absorb all of the recoil. When moving it, it was require to break it down into three loads that could be moved by either tractor or horse. It fired a 44.2kg shell some 18.7km

german_150mm_kanone_small.jpg

There is are two samples of this gun still surviving, one L/40 and one L/45, both in the Naval Museum in Varna in Bulgaria. (Thanks to Arie Dijkhuis for this info.)

The photos below show those surviving guns, and have been kindly supplied by Jack Mueller:

This shows the L/45 variant. Click to enlarge! Photo courtesy by Jack Mueller

This shows the L/40 variant. Click to enlarge! Photo courtesy by Jack Mueller This shows the L/45 variant. Click to enlarge! Photo courtesy by Jack Mueller This shows the L/40 variant. Click to enlarge! Photo courtesy by Jack Mueller

Also, there is one surviving L/40 gun, in what seems to be very good shape, to be found in Sydney in Australia.



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Wesley Thomas
SASH155


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confuseDoes anyone out there on this forum have an answer to this question? Thanks, SASH155

-- Edited by SASH155 on Friday 29th of January 2010 05:00:23 AM

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Wesley Thomas
arjen


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Hello SASH155

thanks to Guy Francois (ALVF) I think this mystery is solved.

In this http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Forum-Pages-d-Histoire-armees-etrangeres/Allemagne/craonne-environs-allemande-sujet_283_1.htm and this http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Pages-d-Histoire-Artillerie/Artillerie/douille-grande-sujet_152_1.htm threads he explains where the guns originally came from.

The guns with the recoil buffers on top are from a Kanone aus Turm-Lafette C/97 and the guns with the recoil buffers on the side are from a Kanone aus Mittel-Pivot-Lafette C/97.
So they are both L/40!

Guy, merci for solving this mystery!


Kind regards Arjen


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CharlieC


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If someone would like to write up the corrections for the 15cm KiR article I'll edit the original article and put it up on Landships II.

Regards,

Charlie




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SASH155


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Thanks so much for the clarification, however, what accounts for the difference in ordnance construction between the two types?

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Wesley Thomas
CharlieC


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Checking from the Naval direction - on the Navweaps site (www.navweaps.com).
There are 2 15cm guns noted:

15cm SK L/40 from 1896
15cm SK L/45 from 1906

The 1896 gun had the recoil cylinders alongside the barrel - it's primary use was as a secondary casemate mounted gun although it was also used in cruisers. The attached image is from the raider Wolf.

The 1906 gun had the recoil cylinders on top of the barrel - this gun was both casemate and open turret mounted.

Both guns were designated SK (Schnelladekanone) - this refers to the propellant being loaded as a bag and in a cartridge which carried the primer.

Regards,

Charlie







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Anonymous

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confuseYes, but it is now being contended by others on this thread that in fact both variants of the 15cm slK i.R. used an L/40 ordnance, not an L/45 ordnance. The tubes on the two gun types in question seem to differ substantially in their construction (the long single "step" chase version vs. the short three "steps" chase version), but their overall length seems to be identical according to others here. I have seen photos of the L/45 ordnance (for example in Hans Mehl's book on naval guns), and it's tube seems to have been built in three more or less equal "steps", similar in construction to the 17cm L/40 ordnance, and as such resembles in no way the two above described guns. Therefore, there must have been two L/40 15cm naval guns in German service with differing tube construction. P.S. The photo you attach seems to show a gun with a Welin interupted screw breech, not a feature typically seen on German naval ordnance; I believe that this is most likely a British Mk. VII 6 inch gun. 

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ALVF


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Hello,

I have the german Manual "15-cm Schnellade-Kanone L/40 in Räderlafette mit Bettung (s.15-cm Kanone)" Essen 1916 and I read:

"Die 15 cm Schnellade-Kanone L/40 ist eine aus einer Turm-Lafette C/97 oder aus einer Mittel-Pivot-Lafette C/97 der Deutsche Marine entnommene Kanone, die durch Ausrüstung mit einer Räderlafette und einer zerlegbaren Bettung für zwecke des Land-krieges zum Schiessen auf grosse Entfernungen verwendbar gemacht ist."

The photographs of the manual show:
-the "15-cm SKL/40 aus M.P.L." with recoil cylinders alongside the barrel.
-the "15-cm SKL/40 aus T.L" with recoil cylinders on top of the barrel.

I have also thirty original photographs of the two models of carriages for the 15-cm SKL/40, the barrels are the same on T.L and M.P.L mountings and different of the 15-cm SKL/45 of whom I know two land types: one coast gun and one railway gun (I have also manuals of these two models).

We have, in France, the expression "Les faits sont têtus"!
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.


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CharlieC


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Thanks - there seems to be a good case for 3 15cm naval guns used by the German Army:

15cm SK L/40 MPL (pintle mount gun) - side mounted recoil cylinders
15cm SK L/40 TL (turret gun) - top mounted recoil cylinders
Both of these were designed in 1896/7. The German text seems to be saying that these
were used on a wheeled carriage (raderlafette) and as a fixed gun with transportable bedding.

15cm SK L/45 - top mounted recoil cylinders - designed in 1906 - used as a railway gun, ("Nathan") and in coastal defence emplacements.

Ok - I think the Landships article needs some updating - which was the argument made in the first post of this thread.

Regards,

Charlie






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Arie Dijkhuis


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Gentlemen,

I don't want to throw a spanner in the works, but there seems to be a third version of the 15cm gun in wheeled carriage. The attached picture shows a barrel with two steps, indicating it would be a version with side recoils, yet it has top and bottom recoils. Does anyone have ideas?

With kind regards,

-Arie.

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ALVF


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Hello,

The last picture is not a third version, it is the 15-cm SKL/40 aus Turm-Lafette.
The german manual show the T.L version with all the cylinders quite visible and said:
"Bei Geschützrohren aus T.L. ist die Wiege ein aus Bronze gefertigter Hohlzylinder, der das Rohr umschliesst und mit zwei seitlichen Schildzapfen im Lafettenkörper ruht.Das Rohr läuft, durch setliche Ansätze geführt, in der Bohrung des Wiegenkörpers zurück und vor.
Zur Bremsung des Rücklaufs dienen zwei gezogene Rücklaufbremsen, von denen die eine auf, die andere unter der Wiege gelagert ist.
Die Vorholeinrichtung wird durch vier zu beiden Seiten der Bremszylinder angebrachte Federzylinder gebildet, von denen die beiden oberen und die beiden unteren durch je eine Traverse untersich und mit dem Rohr verbunden sind".
In few months, I write in the french Review "Tank Zone" a paper with some 30 unpublished photographs with all the versions of these 15-cm naval guns.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

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Arie Dijkhuis


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Hi Guy,

Many thanks for the info. What I meant was not that this version had top and bottom recoil and that the TL version only has top recoil, I know that all guns with top recoil also have bottom recoil. What I was trying to say, is that this one seemt to have a different barrel. It seems to be the barrel of the MPL (side recoils) with the cradle of the TL (top and bottom recoil). See attached picture in which I have pasted both types...

With kind regards,

-Arie

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28juni14


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Ecellent catch, Arie!    The top piece certainly does have stepped barrel jackets as opposed to the improved piece.

It appears you've identified an old piece reconditioned and brought up to standards by fitting new recouperators as per the the new model.



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Arie Dijkhuis


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Hi Jack,

I first thought that it was a third piece. That wasn't until I pasted the barrel of the MPL with side recoils in the picture and found that the match was perfect. It is probably the barrel of the MPL in the cradle of the TL... Probably a field repair job, as this is the only one I have ever seen...

With kind regards,

-Arie.




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SASH155


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CharlieC wrote:


Checking from the Naval direction - on the Navweaps site (www.navweaps.com).
There are 2 15cm guns noted:

15cm SK L/40 from 1896
15cm SK L/45 from 1906

The 1896 gun had the recoil cylinders alongside the barrel - it's primary use was as a secondary casemate mounted gun although it was also used in cruisers. The attached image is from the raider Wolf.

The 1906 gun had the recoil cylinders on top of the barrel - this gun was both casemate and open turret mounted.

Both guns were designated SK (Schnelladekanone) - this refers to the propellant being loaded as a bag and in a cartridge which carried the primer.

Regards,

Charlie



I think the photo posted here is actually of a British 6 inch gun (a Mk. VII?). Note the Welin interupted screw breech; the German naval guns usually had horizontal sliding wedge breeches.


-- Edited by SASH155 on Saturday 19th of February 2011 03:56:06 PM

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Wesley Thomas
ALVF


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Hello,

Sorry, but I have under the eyes the official and original german Manual "15-cm Schnellade-Kanone L/40 in Räderlafette mit Bettung (s.15-cm Kanone)" and I read:

"Die 15-cm Schnellade Kanone L/40 ist eine aus einer Turm-Lafette C/97 oder aus einer Mittel-Pivot-Lafette C/97 der Deutschen Marine entnommene Kanone.....".

I have also the Manual "Vorläufige Ausbildungsvorschrift für die 15-cm Schnelladekanone L/45 C/1913 und die 15-cm Schnelladekanone L/45 C/1916 auf Eisenbahnwagen".This is the manual, dated "Juli 1918" of the 15-cm SKL/45 "Nathan" railway gun.

I think the 15-cm SKL/40 in Räderlafette were only C/96 guns on M.P.L and T.L C/97 mountings.I agreed the last writing of Arie, the photograph is a barrel for a M.P.L mounting in the craddle of a T.L.
I think the "Nathan" railway guns had only 15-cm SKL/45 C/1913 or C/1916.
Sorry for my poor english writing!
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

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Arie Dijkhuis


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Hi Guy,

 

Do your handbooks of these guns also contain measurements, like Feuerhöhe (firing hight), Raddurchmesse (wheel diameter), Radbreite (wheel width), Gleisbreite (track width), etc? I have been trying to make some scale drawings of both guns, but it is not going well. I need more measurements to get a decent set of drawings.

 

With kind regards,

 

-Arie.



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SASH155


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François: Were these pieces included in your recent article (vol. 2 or 3?) in "Tank Zone" on the 15cm K-16, which I tried to get a copy of, but it was out of stock at H&C? Or is this an article still yet to be printed?



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Wesley Thomas
ALVF


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Hello,

The paper on 15-cm SKL/40 will be published this year in "Tank Zone", probably in August, with about 30 photographs.
In the Nr 2 of "Tank Zone", they are 20 photographs of 15-cm K.16 and some photographs of 13-cm and 15-cm K.i.S.L guns.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

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