Landships II

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Mexican Civil War Gun

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

I guess that's a 'no' then.

28juni14 · Hero

.. . a mystery indeed,... but one thing is certain;� it is not of German origin.�
Note the direct sights to the side of the bore� &� reciever.�� The weapon lacks a cradle,� the trunions rest directly on the carriage.�� It lacks barrel guides, and is instead fitted with a ring & receiver pin, and�an exposed recoil piston.� Almost looks like a short-barreled dynamite gun.

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Thank you, gentlemen.

I was thinking it might be a Krupp, for two reasons; at the end of the 19th century Krupp seems to have sold guns to every country on Earth, and�Germany was interested in Mexico.

But, as it is not a Krupp, could it be American? Is a short barreled dynamite gun far-fetched?�There are photos of American guns in use by Mexican forces. There is a Gardner gun in the Pancho Villa Museum. Unreliable or duplicitous arms deals with the Americans have been cited as the main reason for Pancho Villa's 'invasion' of the USA. So, probably many American guns made their way to Mexico.

Or perhaps it is a relic from the Mexican American War (70 years old)? Or the Maximilian Affair (50 years old)?

Home made? Without meaning to sound condescending, Mexico was a very 'modern' country back then, with a good economy,�and had the enthusiasm or initiative and capacity to make arms.

If any body is in Mexico, maybe they could stop by and try to find out more. The gun is in El Museo de La Ciudad de Guadalajara. And the rest of the city is certainly a wonderful place to visit as well.

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Tuesday 15th of December 2009 04:15:55 PM

Ironsides · Legend

Hi PDA.. no idea but heres good site which may help....

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/mex-revolution.htm

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/mexican-artillery.htm

Cheers wink

Ironsides · Legend

Im Guessing its a locally produced "Mondagon" all i can find at the moment is the breech patent but im sure ive seen more....

mondragon

Cheers wink

Rectalgia · Legend

Ironsides wrote:
Im Guessing its a locally produced "Mondagon" all i can find at the moment is the breech patent but im sure ive seen more....

mondragon

Yes, that was my first thought but at the time I could find no evidence (lots about the mountain gun, little else fitting the timeline). The breech patent seems like it's a step forward in proving the point though.

ALVF · Major

Hello,

I think that the strange gun is an early mount with old gun studied by Colonel Mondragon, a prolific mexican inventor of the mexican Army.
Colonel Mondragon was the inventor of many very fine designs, he came many times in France at Saint-Chamond works who made some guns of his design:

-the "80 mm transform� � TR" (T.R means Tir Rapide): it is the old 80 mm de Bange gun mounted in modern mount (with hydropneumatic brake).The mexican Army bought many of these efficient "low cost" guns

-the 80 mm mountain mortar: a very modern semi-automatic gun studied by Colonel Mondragon and made in Saint-Chamond works in 1910 years.

-a very modern coast gun 240 mm gun also made in Saint-Chamond (prototype).

-the most known semi-automatic Rifle Mondragon, adopted by Mexican Army PRIOR the first world war.The prototype was build in Saint-Etienne in France but the building was made in Switzerland in Neuhausen in 1913 -1914 years.
They are photographs of Colonel Mondragon visiting Saint-Chamond works prior the first World War.
Yours sincerely,
Guy Fran�ois.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi ALVF there is a patent for the Mondragon Automatic rifle apparantly some guns were used in limited quantitys by the germans initially for ground troops? but was'nt a success too suceptable to dirt and grim and soon dropped, some use was made as an early aircraft gun as well it seems with an extended(20 round box and 30 round helical?) magazine....

Jos� Doroteo Arango "Pancho Villa" was�apparantly killed by one of these....

http://img83.imageshack.us/i/mondragon600hk1.jpg/�� drum fed

http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=34105&sale=233�� extended mag

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 12:01:26 PM

ALVF · Major

Hello,

The story of Mondragon automatic Rifle is old:

-as early�that�1891, the General Porfirio Diaz,�then President of Mexican Republic, �asked to Colonel Mondragon to study an automatic Rifle.
-Colonel Mondragon worked with french civilian and military armourers in Saint-Etienne in France to study his Rifle.
-The Mondragon rifle was tested in France by "Section Technique de l'Artillerie" and "Ecole Normale de Tir".
-after many studies years, the Rifle production for mexican Army began in april 1908 in Switzerland by the "Soci�t� Industrielle Suisse" in Neuhausen.
-in 1914, a german mission bought Mondragon rifles in Switzerland and used them in Aircraft.The same year, France bought Winchester 351 and 401 self-loading Rifles for Aircraft arming.In 1916, France had nearly 3000 self-loading Winchesters for Aircraft use.They were named in France "Carabines automatiques Winchester, calibres 351 et 401 Winchester".
Yours sincerely,
Guy Fran�ois.

-- Edited by ALVF on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 03:17:27 PM

-- Edited by ALVF on Tuesday 7th of December 2010 03:18:18 PM