This one is at Mt Morgan in Central Queensland. it was previously incorrectly identified as a C73 on the basis of a couple of small images. Billett identifies it as a 95mm smooth bore gun captured by the Light Horse at Beersheba.
Any ideas on the identification?
Regards,
Charlie
-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 15th of January 2010 12:21:08 AM
A careful examination of these better pictures (thanks) clearly shows you are right rejecting the C73 hypothesis. One of the sure things is that the tube is not one of these types, having a continuous section from the breech to the muzzle, where the C73 is a 'ring kanone'.
This being said, the craddle shows big similitudes with the Krupp ones, as well as the breech.
Some observations :
- the 'smooth bore' assumption is really surprising, since the tube is equipped with a breech block. Grooved bores were invented in artillery when the guns were still loaded by the muzzle, and this one has been designed to be loaded by the breech.
- it is therefore unhopeful there is no pictures of the bore inside, to check this, but without this we must assume the bore is really smooth, and the conclusion of this is that this weapon is dedicated for short range fighting, and had a low precision
- the craddle looks like a cut of a Krupp C73-like one (especially the trunnions part of it). It has not been designed like that, but more likely 'adapted' like that.
- The end of the craddle is intersing, with this vertical cylinder, and no spade. This tube could have been the place for a transversal wheel that could be running on a circular rail
- In that case, the 'box' built under the trunnions side of the craddle could be hiding another axis, the main one that would be used for the gun to pivot.
- another very interesting detail is the elevation system (wheel and threaded pole) position. This one is placed on the top ot the tube, instead of the the classical position under the breech. And obviously this system is currently se with the lowest possible elevation, while the tube is yet at +10 or +20 degrees, and there is plenty of reserve elevation, probably to high angles higher than 45 degrees.
- in all cases, this means that the tube is not designed to be set at horizontal position for loading with a classical lateral breechblock, unless this is done with a system that disappeared afterwards. This would confirm this weapon was loaded by the muzzle. There is then no reason that this tube has a breech type design, although it has !
So...
My own guess based on these observation would be that we are facing an 'Do-it-yourself' short-range mortar, improvised on the base of a fieldgun designed by Krupp (it could be either a Turkish gun, or a captured Russian one) and rebored from 90mm to 95mm.
This re-machining would have removed the grooves, and could have been performed on a worn tube.
Given the elevation system and the smooth-bore particularity, this weapon was perhaps a short-range defensive one (a bit like trench mortars) for a fortified position, perhaps even only firing shots.
Bersheeba was heavily entrenched, and the presence of that kind of weapon would make sense. Unhopefully, the Wikipedia (very complete) study on this battle only states "In the capture of Beersheba, the 4th Light Horse Brigade took 38 officers and 700 other ranks prisoner as well as four field guns.".
- another very interesting detail is the elevation system (wheel and threaded pole) position. This one is placed on the top ot the tube, instead of the the classical position under the breech. And obviously this system is currently se with the lowest possible elevation, while the tube is yet at +10 or +20 degrees, and there is plenty of reserve elevation, probably to high angles higher than 45 degrees.
- in all cases, this means that the tube is not designed to be set at horizontal position for loading with a classical lateral breechblock, unless this is done with a system that disappeared afterwards. This would confirm this weapon was loaded by the muzzle. There is then no reason that this tube has a breech type design, although it has !
Friendly
Bernard
Given the position of the axel tree & the end hubs, IF this piece had been mounted on a wheeled carriage then the barrel would be at Maimum elevation as it is displayed - approx 45 degrees (continuong the line of steep angle of the trail of the carriage).
Then the top mounted 'elevation' screw would give declination to 0 degrees at least & probably some significant depression.
There looks to be a flat angle at the base of the carriage trail that has been reinforced with flat plates & had a pivot point or retaining bolt added? Further the cross plats behind the present breach position & the shift of the trunion mounts suggest a modiftcation to a standard 45 degree elevation.
A field expedient heavy mortar & / fortress close defence piece (from an obsolete & / or worn gun) would appear to be most probable.
Putting wheels on the carriage the whole starts to look like an late 19th Century siege mortar - the field carriage version of the Russian 6inch mortar springs to mind. I have attached pictures of the 1885 on both field & fortress carriages (can't find my notes on where I got them so appolgies to the source).
Loading I suspect would be by depressing the barrel so the breach could be operated. This would be most likely as I can't see how this piece could be operated with a fixed pin? Such a method would also give better flexability with charges for range adjustment.
As smoothbore canister or the like becomes viable for close range defence effects. Close pending on exact calibre but prob between 300yrds & 600yrds for maximum practical range.
Hi some observations... To me the barrel appears upside down and the elevation gear does'nt appear to fit in the lugs which are spaced too wide, and might indicate this is not the original mounting for the gun.... On the other hand a close inspection would probarbly determine if the two rings on the elevation gear lugs are actually washers, which if moved outwards would enable it to seat... even so it doesnt look a good fit and I suspect the breech is actually sitting on a cross member or some obstruction not visible in the photo.....
If the gun is from Beersheba I'm wondering why the turks would feel a need to have an improvised breech loading mortar?, as far as Im aware the terain is fairly flat and open... as such I would suggest this gun has been badly re-assembled... There is another possible explanation, an old gun used as a decoy.....
Cheers
-- Edited by Ironsides on Tuesday 19th of January 2010 11:54:58 PM
I've done a little more research on this gun. The town of Quorn in South Australia was also allocated a 95mm smooth bore gun (Billett) captured at Beersheba by the Light Horse.
The Mt Morgan gun is pretty much identical to the Quorn gun but looks like it has been assembled by someone who had no idea how it was supposed fit together.
When properly assembled the gun looks like a fortress gun. It would be interesting to get the breech markings from the Quorn gun. I'll try to find someone in Quorn who might be interested.
Thanks to everyone who made comments on the Mt Morgan gun.
THe new picture is most interesting. The breech was clearly a sliding wedge type. Would be very interest to know if it was something like a bored out C73 or equivalent. The aim being to create a long barrelled mortar to cover dead ground OR to act effectively as a caponier (think thats the right spelling?) - vast fortess shot gun in effect covering the ditch or other approach?
Hi, Apparantly Turkey recieved a good many Krupp guns during the Russio-Turkish war perhaps this is one of those, I dont know enough about Krupp to say what kind of Rifling or otherwise that the barrels had but I suspect its one of these guns, perhaps as Brennan suggests its a rebored barrel, for all I know its a standard catalogue item for the time....
