Landships II

A period glossary like http://www.archive.org/details/vocabularygerma00britgoog would ordinarily be useful, but not this time.

Nearest - Blaue Bohnen (lit "blue beans" = "bullets"), Blausäure ("Prussic acid")
Splitter ("splinter")

I would be inclining towards "shrapnel" and "fragmentation" respectively based on those near-match clues (leaving aside the gas shell) but those aren't exactly the words you asked about. Others may know ... or you might need to provide some context.



-- Edited by Rectalgia on Tuesday 16th of February 2010 06:58:47 AM

blau = blue = it means the color which indicates what type of grenade you have. So you can differentiate between the artillery shells. Usually it is color ring around the grenade itself.

spitter = should mean "splitter" = fragment

well ... can you show us the "Schiesstafel"?

Brennan wrote:

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Almost as important as seeing the fire plan,

If the battery was Fuss Artillery & armed with Howitzers 15cm or 21cm the odds increase sharply that "blau" should be "blaukreuz".

If the target is counterbattery or HQ's or like then also the odds increase sharply that "blau" should be "blaukreuz".

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Interesting. Would blaukreuz be used without grunkreuz as well? Or would a different battery handle the lethal agents? I know nothing of the tactical aspects.

Thanks for your answers - this is fascinating stuff, not much known these days I suspect (I've certainly not come across it in any detail).

I have had a chance to did through things. It is a bit more complex than I recalled.

The designation "Blue Cross" was initially used for "diphenlchloroarsine" this really didn't work effectively as the German's deployed it as a solid with an imbedded charge. This did most produce sufficently small particles to achieve results. The designation was ALSO used for Arsenic Smokes & Chloropicrin (British PS & originally German "Klop").

At peak the German's had 22 different chemical substances in shells. In late 1917 (Sept???) they rationalised both types and specifications. By the time of the Kaiserschlact these rationalisations were in place. Designations were:

Green OR Green Cross for Lung Irritants

Blue or Blue Cross for Sensory Irritants

Yellow or Yellow Cross for Mustard Gas.

Blue was mostly Chloropicrin to clog &/or penetrate filters OR Arsenic Smoke (though the German's had failed to realise that these needed to be "super"heated to be really effective). After making 10 million shells diphenlchloroarsine had been abandoned. So while Blue might not be non-leathal it also could be.

Green (Green Cross) was almost all ways Chlorine & Phosgene in a mix of some form.

Offensively Blue & Green (as non persistants) were fired at troops & on zones of exploitation / objectives. Blue in particular being used to disrupt artillery & HQ's. Yellow was fired to the flanks & rear to disable artillery & cut off reinforcements, issolate objectives etc. If important artillery concentrations were in the path of the advance A mix of a Box Barrage of Yellow (Mustard) to isollate & pin with Blue (with or without Green) to disrupt was used.

The Gas bombardments plans should have ALL colours on them & were often called "Buntschiessen" - colour shoots.

Defensively the pattern altered. Yellow or Mustard was used heavily on the enemy positions But Blue on own positions (unless they were to be abandonded) to facilitate counter attacks. Though the use of Mustard Gas was for some while limited significantly by supply.

Thus the date, purpose, make up & titling of the fire plan that Irish Gunner refers to is rather important in untangling things.

Hope this helps. I have rather better information on the British & somewhat less on the French. I have found basically bugger all on the Russians.

Agreed, with two provisos
1. That the particulates are fine enough.
2. That the gas is created / converted to vapour at a sufficently high tempertature.

Both are things the Germans in WWI failed to do. The Answer was the British Termogenerator system - both for clouds, Bombs & Grenades. They discovered the issue by thoughtlessly heating some of the recovered crystals from a German gas shell on a stove at one of their chemical warfare HQ's. Fortunately their evacuation & containment procedures were good as NO Gas Mask of ANY of the combatants could cope. Something the Brits urgently addressed. The attack system was only functional in 1919. The only recorded use is on the Bolsheviks in the Far North, where the densely wooded terrian prevented large scale use. Though what use there was produced frightning results!

Brennan

Sorry to wander slighhtly from the original start point of this thread but Blue Cross (containing diphenylchlorarsine)  was definitely a HUGE cockup by the Germans. They produced an estimated 10 million bljue cross shells and the British Gas Warfare Monthly Summary of Information September 1918 stated that in July 1918 German gas shells in dumps opposite 2nd & 3rd Army contained: 60-70% HE, 27-30 % Blue Cross and the rest other gases (including Mustard Gas). However, as the same document also states There is very little evidence that this gas alone is instrumental in causing an appreciable number of casualties.
This is generally felt to be a classic British understatement and I have seen one source that claims that there were NO British fatalities due to the gas component of  Blue Cross shells (obviously the HE and resulting shrapnel could still be lethal). Which would be bad enough given that basically the shells didn't do their job but the real problem would have come once the Britsh started using their version with the analogous compound diphenylamine chlorarsine with a thermogenerator (which was highly effective at very low concentrations) - because the standard German gas mask was penetrated by both. This is the bit I really really don't understand; how come the Germans not only introduced a gas shell without developing the necessary filter for their own troops gas masks but still didn't have one a year later? So much for Teutonic efficiency.
Actually I am aware that their were big problems adding any extra filters to the German Ledermaske but the point still remains.
 
BTW. I managed to get a reasonable picture of a German 77mm Blue Cross shell at the Imperial War Museum (see below)

Brennan


Very good point about Mustard Gas shells being used up first in defensive counter measures. Certainly mixtures of shells were used. Crudely put blue cross type gases seemed to penetrate gas masks more quickly so were good at getting troops to pull off their masks, so fire them first. And whilst green cross (phosgene/chlorine etc) was lethal it could be slow acting (I have read that it could take up to 4hrs for phosgene effects to kick in).
Certainly from a British viewpoint by the end of the war the objective of gas warfare was to wear down, disable and deny. Given the universal issue of gas masks etc killing was seen as a 'bonus'.

Incidentally, German post war tests on the Ledermaske found 75% to be defective in some way - not very good odds if you were a German soldier! The problem of course is given away by the name - LeatherMask. The Allied blockage meant that the Central Powers didn't have the rubber to use to make a better mask

As well as the Osprey book a very good book on (mainly British) gas warfare for anyone interested is 'Seeking Victory on the Western Front' by Albert Palazzo