Landships II

FR73 · General

HELP NEEDED IN PAINTING

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Here's an earlier thread:

http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=4621530

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

A word of caution on the Corps & division structure you have from "The Prussian Machine", the presence of Cavalry & Jaeger at Infantry Brigade level is NOT supported by other sources. Yes there often was an allocation of extra Cavalry & / or Jaeger at Corps or higher level & the lower allocation May have been desired but is not supported by actual events. I would recommend Hermann Cron "Imperial German Army 1914-18" - Organisatio, structure, Orders-of-Battle (originally published 1937, Berlin - translated into English & published in 2001 by Helion & Company Ltd). I qoute from pg 96 on the infantry division:

"Afater mobilisation was completed the troops of the Infantry Division normally consisted of 12 infantry battalions, 4 machine-gun companies, 3-4 squadrons, 12 field batteries, 1-2 pioneer companies, the dicisional pontoon train and 2 medical companies. In addition, in one division of the Corps there was normally added 1 Jaeger battalion, with machine-gun company, cycle company, and Jaeger motorised vehicle column."

Relevant foot notes are:

43 i.e. 2 infantry brigades, each with 2 regiments, each with 3 battalions, each with 4 companies.
44 (machine-gun companies) One per infantry regiment.
45 (cavalry) Half-regiment with 3 squadrons or Regiment with 4 squadrons.
46 (artillery) i.e.a field artillery brigade with 2 regiments, each 2 sections (abteilung), each with 3 batterries (each of 6 guns or howitzers)
47 During the advance the Jaeger battalions were almost all ordered to accompany the cavalry divisions.

The elements in () & in italics are my inserts as the post does not allow inserted superscript to directly number foot notes.

Rectalgia · Legend

Sorry to be off-topic here but superscript (and subscript) is/(are) available in the forum through "html substitution":

^superscript shows superscript text
_subscript shows subscript text

The tags are sup and sub respectively and the only difference to having them in BB code square brackets - like [sup]superscript[/sup] - is you use html angle brackets instead. Angle brackets are the ones on the 2 keys to the right of "M" on the US English keyboard.

[edit - right of "M", right being my "other left"]

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Sunday 11th of April 2010 05:56:36 AM

FR73 · General

Ok guys, I asked for paints. smile

As for the corps, being that I'm a cook by profession, an old friend and culinary mentor of mine once told me this about cooking, but I think It applies here as well;

"No one stands over you with a ruler to measure each piece as it is cut, so you don't need to be spot on with everything, it just needs to be a general representation of what you are trying to do".

am I right guys? I mean who among us has enough money to buy enough miniatures to match every figure for soldier and horse, and every model for wagon, truck, or tank. you know?

-- Edited by FR73 on Sunday 11th of April 2010 06:27:14 AM

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

Josh, as I said, I don't use Testors paint. Also, the only Germans I have painted are dead ones, so they are all�mud coloured.

These days, I prefer to use acrylics because they are easier to clean up, easier on the brushes (which aren't cheap) and easier on my health (which is fine, but there's no point in taking chances is there!).

In the thread I referred to, Peter Kempf (the founder of this site, and something of a hero to everyone here) says he uses Humbrol Slate Grey for the basic uniform colour. Slate Grey is Humbrol number 31, and here is a conversion table:

http://www.humbrol.com/convert-to-humbrol/conversion-tables/

Hope this helps

Michel Boer · Brigadier

In any case, I would start off with a primer. I'm spraying everything with Vallejo Air grey primer, which is water based (better for your health) and attaches to practically every sort of material. It doesn't matter if you then use enamel or acrylic paint.
Next to Humbrol's slate grey, their field grey 111 is also a good color, either to drybrush highlights on the slate grey, or�to simulate�sun bleached clothing.

Michel.

RCD · Lieutenant-Colonel

I have always used the colour schemes as stated by Revells WW1 set
Revell numbers used

helmet 46
Uniform top 67
trousers 79
boots and belt either 381 brown leather(?) or 09 anthrazit

not sure that this is right but it looks ok!

Despite the problems with flash I still feel the figures are some of the best WW1 (late) available. It took ages to clean them up but the machine guns and crews are mega.

FR73 · General

Well, I read from many sources that say models intended for miniature war gaming shouldn't be painted with acrylics; it tends to be unreliable and flake off as time goes by as models are continuously handled. I figure its ok for dioramas, stand alones, and things that won't be touched, but I'm modeling for miniature war gaming so I need paint that is geared for longevity. Would it be ok to use enamel then? anyways, there any truth to washing figures before painting? Also, if I do use acrylics, to make the paint stay on after they dry or before, isn't there some sort of varnish typically used?

-- Edited by FR73 on Monday 12th of April 2010 03:53:59 AM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Josh,

washing (soft) plastic figures in hand warm water and a detergent will remove some of the grease. But as Michel already mentioned: you better need a primer, and the grey coloured Vallejo is a very good one as are their acrylics too. I would certainly use these, they have a high percentage of pigments in it. It comes in little plastic flasks and you only need a tiny drop and dilute that with some water. And Vallejo has a nice wide range of colours too.
Flat coat enamels are not that much stronger than acrylics, as they are affected by finger grease if you have to touch them frequently. Almost every model paint brand has a dull coat varnish (or semi gloss or gloss which I would not use, they can give on small figures a toy like shine).
If you want to use enamels, you can keep your brushes in good state by cleaning them in some white spirit and a piece of cloth or tissue first and wash them in hand warm water and a little soap afterwards. If you use acrylics, take a nylon haired or filament brush. The natural haired are for oils and will get fouled by acrylic (the other way round too).
And I would recommend a good quality brush, which are not that cheap like some in these ready to paint sets. But they give a much better result and saves you the frustration of painting with a brush where the hair is falling out and so on. And if you want use both enamels and acrylics: you can apply enamel on acrylics but not the other way round.
Oh and one last tip: use for rubber tires a dark grey, or black with a little dark brown. Looks much more like the real thing!

regards, Kieffer

Michel Boer · Brigadier

You could also spray a coating of matte varnish; Lifecolor 27 is quite good. Better not use it with a brush as it will show milky white if applied too thick. Spraying gives a nice matte result and will protect the paint itself.

Michel.

Aircav · Sergeant

Try some of the wargamining sites:
Here's a thread about 20mm plastics
http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=6711&p=68695#p68695

On the Wab forum look for Pijlie he's done 20mm ww1 armies

Here's my 28mm WW1 painting guides on Laf:

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=12793.0

http://www.lead-adventure.de/index.php?topic=12802.0

Keith

FR73 · General

Some of these look promising, also, what colors were used on German cavalry? (Tones for horses, Saddle colors etc.) I have a bunch of those strelets cavalry sets on hand. I haven't painted a test figure yet, but would also like to know what enamel fieldgrey would look good on an Emhar A7V?

Josh

-- Edited by FR73 on Wednesday 14th of April 2010 11:32:25 PM

hans · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello Josh,here is a link to the Strelets -site ,with some painted figures.
http://www.strelets-r.com/Contrib/C0071/Page.html
and:
http://www.fuhrmann-figuren.de/1zu72-figur/strelets/strelets-0072/strelets-0072.htm

greetings,Hans.

FR73 · General

Are you guys aware that Humbrol Slate grey and Humbrol 111 Fieldgrey are both available in enamel based paints? (Thats what it says in their websites anyways,)

Josh

-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 15th of April 2010 12:01:11 AM

FR73 · General

Whoops, My mistake for posting that last one, (Made myself look idiotic by stating the obvious!) but anyways as long as I found a slate gray enamel and can match "Fieldgrey for my troops and vehicles I should be ok. Paper tests of the "Testors Flat battle grey" revealed it to pretty close to "Panzer grey" which is really, really, icky on WWI stuff. Thanks again for all the help.

Josh

FR73 · General

Say, little off topic here, but I'm having trouble with my Emhar kits I can't seem to get the trestle mount in place the right way. Anyone else have this problem? think I might get a couple of those KORA A7Vs instead as extras. They any good?

FR73 · General

Well anyways, I got the emhar kits together just fine. so back to the subject at hand, I sent away for some humbrol primer, and am expecting to order some slate grey enamel paint and matte varnish this week. So I guess I'm all set. nice chatting with you guys on this, you've all been a terrific help. I'll post when I need help again.

Regards, Josh

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

A quick note, Josh. The tyres of the early WW1 era automobiles were not black, they were a pale, natural rubber colour. See the attached picture. It does not look very 'Hollywood' but it is correct.

Good luck with your projects, please feel free to post pictures of your progress.

-- Edited by philthydirtyanimal on Sunday 25th of April 2010 04:40:48 PM

FR73 · General

P.S Where do I get assembly instructions for MGM resin kits?

Michel Boer · Brigadier

MGM kits normally have either a scale drawing inside the box, or a sheet with some color photo's of the unpainted model; no elaborate manuals showing where each small part should go. My advise is to keep some photo's of the real thing at hand, or study photo's of other people's models (like those of Peter Kempf at the original Landships site).
Which MGM models do you have or intend to obtain?

Michel.

FR73 · General

I Have the following MGM's:
1 pigeon trailer
1 Prussian Anti Ballon Gun wagon
1 Munitions wagon for 38cm Howitzer
and 2 A7V Gelandwagen transport tanks

Plus:
1 TP models Field kitchen
and 1 KORA K wagen heavy tank

Basically your run-of-the-mill army corps auxiliaries.

Also, I'm planning on painting, but would like to know the following:
Before assembling:
Is it recommended to wash resin kit to help remove flash i.e wheel spokes etc.
Is it safe to use regular plastic model cement on a resin kit?
Before painting:
What is a good spray primer for enamels? I have a tiny humbrol matte primer, but it certainly won't be enough to do 10+ figures at once. Also need help finding a spray varnish if possible.

Thanks, Josh

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Josh,

I don't think washing is helping much with flash removing. Use some very thin files and waterproof sand paper, and sharp knives will do the job. Don't try to bend resin parts, if they need some correction you can try hot water. But take care, the stuff breaks easily by using force. Experiment with some sprue first.
Plastic cement is not appropriate for resin kits, better use cyano (that stuff that bonds in a second, take care of your skin) or the epoxy glues. The cyano is water like, but it's also on the market as a gel. The epoxy is in different varieties, form quick bonding to slow.
Many resin kits have tiny holes, most of them you first discover after the first layer of paint.
So a filler like Milliput is handy.
I don't know if Revell still has a primer, their cans were not that tiny. Or Tamiya.
If possible take a grey color instead of white. With varnish, I would take one that comes from the same maker as the enamel.

regards, Kieffer

FR73 · General

Ever use TESTORS brand stuff?

FR73 · General

I did some searching, you can still get the Tamiya primer, but about resin glue, I can't find such a thing as cyano glue, however are the epoxy glues the same model airplane/wood glue?

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Josh,

I never used Testors paint, but I heard it is a good product used by many modellers.
Personally I prefer acrylics, or artists oils.
If you're afraid to spoil your newly achieved resin kits, may be you could buy a cheap kit, doesn't matter what, and experiment a bit with paint, cement etc.?

regards, Kieffer

CharlieC · Legend

FR73 wrote:

I did some searching, you can still get the Tamiya primer, but about resin glue, I can't find such a thing as cyano glue, however are the epoxy glues the same model airplane/wood glue?

That's strange - I thought cyano glues were just about universally available - how about "SuperGlue", or "KrazyGlue" - same thing. Good idea to have some cheap nail varnish remover (contains acetone) around if you are using cyano glues - in case you stick yourself to the parts you're gluing.

Regards,

Charlie

�

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Josh,

no, the white glue used for wood is not the same as the epoxy.
If you have a DIY shop in your vicinity, just take a look, they usually have a rack or display- stand with the whole range:
cyano, often called super glue, wonder glue etc as Charlie already mentioned;
epoxy, usually in a blisterpack with two tubes or syringe like thingies because you have to mix the two components equally.
The epoxy glue is stronger than the cyano, but for small resin kits cyano works fine.

regards, Kieffer

FR73 · General

Oh, Ok. That clears things up, they sell krazyglue everywhere here in Prior Lake.
I wasn't sure if epoxy glue meant same as� yellow wood glue. That what it seemed like on ebay. OK. You guys saved me a $16.00 package from England, and turned into a harmless two minute trip to the hardware store.

Much obliged, Josh

-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 6th of May 2010 08:20:33 PM

philthydirtyanimal · Commander in Chief

As Kieffer says, either type (Cyanoacrylate or Epoxy) will work. But you may want to go for the slower setting super-glue to give yourself time to adjust the parts to the fit. If it sets instantly, it might get stuck in the wrong place. If you have a craft store, such as Michaels, nearby you can get the gel version of the super glue (it will say 'gel' on it. Don't let a sales assistant convince you otherwise!) which is a slower set.

I use the instant kind for everything, because it seems all my models are made of wood, plastic, metal and resin, all in one kit, and I don't want to bother changing tubes mid-build. However, I dry fit like a fanatic before I even put the glue tube on the table! And I have had accidents in the past; heads stuck to shoulders instead of necks, tracks stuck to fingers, that sort of thing.

FR73 · General

Ok, I got all my screw ups fixed thanks to the super glue.
As soon as it dries hard, I can continue removing flash. I'm using a little metal nail file I picked up in thhe bathroom when I was brushing my teeth this morning, it seems to work well at removing flash in between wheel spokes.

also, I put together an air arm for my ad hoc army corps, I kept it simple, yet I added a Roden G.IV bomber. everything else are Fokker's by Revell. I have an eindecker, a biplane, and the famous Dr.1. (However, I again deviate from the mainstream, through painting it as a replica of Werner Vosses Plane).

P.S on the small subject of aircraft, where does one get one of those Drachen observation balloons? the site landships recommends looks like its been offline for some time.

also, all goes well with my terrain board, got some pics on my phone will upload as soon as possible so you can all see!! biggrin

-Josh

-- Edited by FR73 on Saturday 8th of May 2010 06:54:59 AM

-- Edited by FR73 on Saturday 8th of May 2010 07:02:13 AM

FR73 · General

I found primer, but where do I get something like Lifecolor 27 spray varnish?

Also will need to get my hands on something more than 14ml of Slate grey paint, there any larger bottles/jars available than 14ml? also, the matt grey primer coated pretty thin, but grey in other places on my K wagen track return rollers. is it supposed to coat thin? I just wish I could get some pics up to show what I'm dealing with, I mean its not serious, but if anyone has good painting tips specific to priming and varnishing figs and models not already aforementioned, do tell.

A more serious problem right now is that the sides may not fit uniformly on the K wagen I'm constructing anyone else whose built it have this problem?.

Anyways some aesthetic questions, anyone know how peter put in those doors on his? and on the front vision port? any pics out there on the appearance of the K-wagens proposed front?

Thanks, Josh

-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 13th of May 2010 07:52:46 PM

FR73 · General

Well now, I started to paint and here what happened; It turns out my testors stuff is car model paint, as it all produces a gloss affect. Fortunately, I only painted the tracks,(No crucial model parts were injured) which can be done over with a more matt ACRYLIC. Thats right acrylic. So lets get down to business gentlemen, It took time for me to realize things, and even now I still had to fall on my *** as the saying goes, but now I am ready to learn. I need to make a list of replacement paints in acrylic, for the following:

Piping, Cap Bands Etc. 1150 Flat Red

For Rifles, ATs MG08/15's pistols, and Carbines 1133 Light brown and Black

For Steel Helmets and Grenade heads 1171 Flat Beret Green

For Mess Kits and MG08's Black

For leather Equipment 1140 Brown

For bandoliers 1136 Gray

and Lastly, Flesh tone is 1116 Cream

I'm goin to order spray primer but can't find stuff in the line of spray varnish. I already have a recomended color for fieldgrey, so a major appearance flaw was averted.

-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 20th of May 2010 06:43:24 AM

-- Edited by FR73 on Thursday 20th of May 2010 06:45:25 AM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Josh,

luckily you discovered that before more damage was done..and a little advice: acrylics on oil based paint, for small parts it will hold but you easily will rub it off, (especially on gloss) so if you're wargaming and touching your models often than better stay with either acrylics only or just enamels,

good luck! Kieffer

FR73 · General

Ok then, so would it be better to go to humbrol and just buy similar colors except in matt enamel paints? I mean like I said, what I have right now, its all going to be glossy, so would I have to find dull matt varieties then?

FR73 · General

Ok, Made the decision, Humbrol enamel 100% of the way. will start ordering soon, gave the testors paints to my Fiance. She does car models. (So she'll be working on my 1913 Mercedes when it gets here) biggrin

FR73 · General

But quick question before I order something that won't look good at all,
what are Humbrol satin and metallic colors like? anyone ever use them?

The reason I'm asking is 133 brown (Satin) looks like it would be better to use than 186 Matt brown. take a look here and you'll see what I mean:

http://scale-models.nl/cc-humbrol.html

FR73 · General

What are some American dealers of humbrol paint that accept paypal?

Ironsides · Legend

Hi FR73...

I dont know about paypal but heres the official site in the USA for�Airfix/Humbrol you can order and pay online.... they do have a list of�retailers as well perhaps your lucky enough to be close to one...

http://www.shopatron.com/products/category/359.2.26924.0.0.0.0

Personally I go for Acryllics and inks�but I guess it a matter of personal choice, I shouldnt take too much notice of the colours shown in the various guides online these are likely to vary a good deal and probarbly wont show up true too colour on your monitor... I find its basically best guess, unless you can actually see the dry paint recommendation is best...
gloss is not a problem you can always Humrol "Matt Coat after, its not acryllic and doesnt yellow with age.... make sure you mix it well and then some more..�I thin with a little artists turpentine as�I find it a bit thick....

Alternatively try "Lendons of Cardiff".. good service, they also have an ebay site

http://www.lendonsmodelshop.co.uk/index.asp?search=Paints%20Sprays%20Accessories

Cheers smile

�

FR73 · General

Quick question about touch ups. Is it possible to do another coat after you varnish? I just finished an A7V last nite and was noticing I didn't cover the primer in a small area on the cab. I know its prob. a no brainer and you prob. can but I'm just asking cuz i don't know if it would screw up the varnish or not. regards, josh.