Landships II

Rory · Corporal

British Mortar Colour Question.

Rob · Legend

Mortars were green - a friend of mine has recently finished a trio of replicas for various museums/living history groups!

The guns should be gunmetal, in 1/72 scale i've found black with a drybrushing works well though (presuming you mean the machine guns? If the main guns, then the same colour as the Tank)

-- Edited by Rob on Thursday 15th of April 2010 08:16:00 PM

Rory · Corporal

Thanks for the info, no need to repaint them then.

I tend to use a bit of pencil lead dust ,made by rubbing the lead on a bit of old wet/dry paper, rubbed over matt black with a finger to get a gunmetal/worn look on little bits and bobs.

-- Edited by Rory on Thursday 15th of April 2010 08:58:10 PM

Rob · Legend

Just remembered - all the mortars i've seen have a white stripe, at least an inch thick (could be as thick as two inches) painted vertically down the barrel at the back, no idea why, best guess is so it's easier to detect warp in the barrel

Rectalgia · Legend

Rob wrote:
Just remembered - all the mortars i've seen have a white stripe, at least an inch thick (could be as thick as two inches) painted vertically down the barrel at the back, no idea why, best guess is so it's easier to detect warp in the barrel

That's interesting. My only experience is with the "Ordnance ML 3 inch" which was post-WW1 and that had no such marking that I recall - but it was of a much heavier construction than the WW1-era Stokes as I understand it.

The concern with the flimsy barrel of the Stokes would make that marking a reasonable response I guess. Another thought would be to assist a quick visual check of the set-up of the weapon in all light conditions. The legs and baseplate need to always be well-aligned and the attitude of the tube is a quick check on that. The free recoil energy of the Stokes would be very high for such a light weapon, probably quite sufficient to damage the legs if they weren't properly in place.

By the bye - it is a pity similar was not done with the low-powered mortars used in underground mining (for the civilian ore and mullock extraction type activity). Not so much for warping of the tubes as for dents in them.

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Another (possibly the?) reason for the white stripe on WWI Stokes 3" is that they were use with out the legs suspended by a strap from the carrying man's shoulders - rather like an enormous 2" (of thw WWII) variety. This was done to aid in getting them forwards & "instantly" into action when supporting attacking troops. The practice is also supposed to help reduce minimum range?

The Emhar Brit infantry have a figure in this posse, see link below:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=80

(the last figure of the 2nd row).

Rectalgia · Legend

Ah, now that sounds likely indeed. The little 2" mortar of later times was certainly used in that mode though that wasn't a drop-fired weapon (had a trigger, therefore more control). It would take a stout heart to fire the 3" Stokes the same way but, when it was, the white line would be useful for alignment. One would need to be very sure the base plate was well spudded in precisely the direction of the line of fire, remembering the base would be quickly buried in an unprepared position, if not already under muddy water.

Doing away with the elevation screw (and traverse cradle) would mean greater angles of elevation could be used for shorter ranges. That would help absorb the recoil (more) safely too. Anyway, as used in the "offhand position" one would hope it was not often used to fire over the heads of advancing troops. A very "hairy" proposition with a light mortar at the best of times.

So, yes, another vote for the white line on the Stokes. It makes perfect sense now that Brennan has pointed out that intrepid freehand use of the things.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

I'm in a bit of a hurry but I will look it up later: I remember German ww2 pictures with a mortar with a white stripe too, and by the way unpainted Stokes mortars, though not in British service.

regards Kieffer

Rob · Legend

Brennan wrote:

Another (possibly the?) reason for the white stripe on WWI Stokes 3" is that they were use with out the legs suspended by a strap from the carrying man's shoulders - rather like an enormous 2" (of thw WWII) variety. This was done to aid in getting them forwards & "instantly" into action when supporting attacking troops. The practice is also supposed to help reduce minimum range?

The Emhar Brit infantry have a figure in this posse, see link below:

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=80

(the last figure of the 2nd row).

What that weapon is supposed to be I have no idea! Even without the legs it doesn't resemble the 3 inch mortar in size and the shape of the baseplate. I've never heard of it used in that way, i've got a manual for the mortar which i'll check when I get a spare moment - currently hurriedly finishing University work and packing at the same time for a trip to the WW1 battlefields this weekend

�

-- Edited by Rob on Tuesday 20th of April 2010 09:45:34 PM

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

I have only read about & seen pictures of the stokes 3" being used "free hand" in WWI. Unfortunately the pictures I have are hard copy & i don't have a scanner. The shoulder strap is / was actually to assist with carrying the barrel - to help free hand(s) for getting in & out of holes & over very bad ground.

I hope I'm not risking "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs" but please be careful as the great bulk of references to the British 3" mortar MkI are actaully to the interwar Years & early WWII weapon. This was not used as the WWI weapon was, had different dimensions etc., particularly the base plate in WWI is very different in shape.�Please see the link on the landships main site for this:

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/new_pages/stokes_mortar.htm�- 2nd picture down.

As mentioned earlier the bulk of WWI stokes mortars were "relatively flimsy" in the tube. One reason for the often wide variety of ranges given in various sources is the robustness of the tube & / or its method of manufacture (ie was it welded closed, double tubed, full thickness & seamless etc). Additionally the various weights of bomb used - varied between 10lb & 20lb that I know of. Then there is shape of bomb & type of propellant. Late in the war (1918) the bomb stokes designed was introduced with major increases in range (even over other improvements to that date), early black powder was often used for propelant - one reason mortars were NOT popular with troops in the frontline. Illustrations & comments would indicate that various tube lengths were also used but I have no data on this.

Rectalgia · Legend

US Army reprint of the British manual is at - http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p4013coll9&CISOPTR=198&CISOBOX=1&REC=1 this gives some useful insights into 'regulation' use - quick glance doesn't reveal anything about the use without legs but I have little doubt that might be done on occasion or even often. Light mortars are all 'fire and movement' (even without any blackpowder propellant being used to generate gunsmoke). The relatively low velocity shells are easily spotted in flight and the firing point can be quickly determined by the opposition. The usual drill is to fire off as many rounds as possible while the first one is still in flight then BOQ. With a 3-man crew I can imagine that could be 6 or even 8 rounds notwithstanding the short range. The WW2 Ordnance ML 3 inch had a similar range with demonstration/practice charges (and inert projectile) to the Stokes on full charge and that is the sort of performance I've seen from 15 year-old schoolboys. Then the counter-fire starts coming in. Figuratively in the case of the schoolboys.

In Australian post-WW2 service mortars were olive green. I would be surprised if they weren't 'khaki' in other times and in some theatres. To put the cat amongst the pigeons, the AWM has one from the western front that was black - http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/RELAWM00768. I don't imagine that was a whimsy of some curator/conservator - the AWM takes 'accuracy of detail' very seriously. Well, in most things.

Not sure if I'm helping here ..

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Wednesday 21st of April 2010 05:34:16 AM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

a picture of a German mortar with a stripe, I guess that's the striping you're discussing?
It's ww2, somewhere in Norway.
Again, I have to look it up: the velocity of the Stokes was the (or at least one) reason to order the weapon. During its demonstration together with a demonstration of a Mk tank, they showed that practise of firing that quick so there was more than one grenade in the air. I think they showed some war minister and other high rankings, which were impressed by the performance much more than the tank demo.

regards, Kieffer

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

From combat accounts 3 to 5 or 6 rounds appears to be the norm for a "stonk" both in WWI & in WWII. The US manual is very interesting but I wonder if they recieved "cast offs" as the listed ranges are VERY short for the stokes for 1917 & 1918? Also the US manual only refers to time fused bombs & the Imperial Army issued an impact fuse in 1917 - with most if not all 1918 ammo being impact fused! Further the US manual refers only to inserted cartridges not the incremental charges that were in wide British / Imperial issue even in 1917 if not earlier!

Rectalgia · Legend

Excellent questions Brennan. Re the fuses, the US seems to have been surprisingly conservative and mortar impact fuses were a bit problematical, to say the least (as that AWM exhibit perhaps indicates). Even with the much later (post WW2) types, the popular wisdom was to never resupply mortar fuses by airdrop, to illustrate a point. Too many prematures resulted from that practice, somehow, they are (or were) treacherous beasts of things. A detonation in a mortar barrel was not notably survivable by the crew, unlike "proper" artillery.

Rectalgia · Legend

Hi Kieffer,

kieffer wrote:
...a picture of a German mortar with a stripe, I guess that's the striping you're discussing?
It's ww2, somewhere in Norway. ...

Yes, that's the stripe, first picture of it I've seen - and that thing looks very similar to the Stokes (or are you saying it actually is a Stokes?).

Steve