Landships II

Like this one?

In Cordoba Province, Argentina... it's on the yard of... a candy factory!!!!! The name is "Estancia El Rosario" and it's located in the midst of a mountain. They have a few old rusting curious (like this and an ancient John Deere tractor), and a children's playground for the visitors. Must have been quite chore to bring that gun to that mountain place!
D.

Hi

XX century

 

In 1905 was bought a provisional model but with a specific design for the Argentine Army, with a Welin type breech block with six sectors screwed.-

 

Krupp 75mm / L30 field gun Model 1896 (nA?) Made for the Argentine Army in 1905. “Museo de Armas del Círculo Militar”. Welin breech block

 

In 1909, a lot of the final model was purchased.

 

Krupp 75mm  / L30 field gun Argentine Model 1909. “Museo de Armas del Círculo Militar”.Welin breech block

 

Differences and commonalities between the two models

 

Head on.-

 

Behind

 

You can see the Welin breech block, in the two guns.-

 

In the following photos you see the difference between the breech block like "Maxim-Nordenfelt System" and type "Welin".

The first were used in the Krupp from 75mm / L13 Mountain Model 1898, the 1884 modified, until 130mm / L26, 1902.

  The Welin breech block type was used only in the Krupp 75mm / L30 Model 1896 (nA?) Made for the Argentine Army in 1905 and the Krupp 75mm / L30 Argentine Model 1909.-

 

Breech block "Maxim-Nordenfelt System

Breech block “Welin” 

Trademarks  and Argentine National Emblem

 

 

Model 1896 manufactured in Essen in 1905   “Modelo Argentino 1909”

 

 

So you see….”about the 1898 L.28s, they were fitted with a shield and hydraulic recoil mechanisms and designated Mod. 1905”….this is a mistake.

Regards

Eduardo

 

Hi

 

The Feldkanone 96 n.A. (Field Cannon Model of 1896) if had. Although much later was manufactured, it maintained that name (1896).-

I agree that our Krupp model prior to 1898 had no recoil absorption, but from these models brought a system with a spring coupled to ploughshare –

As regards to the Krupp factory 75mm brought the Welin breech block, Yes, I'm saying that. You can see in the models preserved, in its trademark, also read service and maintenance manuals of the Argentine Army, as specifically stated (I have the photocopied 1909) .-

The trademark in the 1905 is read " Essen 1905. No. 32 - 336kg. Fried Krupp AG"

The No. 32 shows that it is not a prototype, but a pre-series, made in Essen and those marks are engraved on the Welin breech (see photos) .-

And for 1905 we had no guns to change the breech, in addition to the carriage, the shield, the elastic system, etc.

As I show in my first note, it changed the breech sliding block by the "breech Maxim-Nordenfelt system" in the models 1884, but to do was to cut the barrel of L25,6 to L23 (also shown in the photos) and this is evident in the same photos for the need to add a piece under the breech, thus  the screw to lift could move the cannon.-

 The other thing you notice as remarkable is the increase in diameter of the whole breech, because this piece is placed on the barrel screwed.-

 

This shows that the two breech are not the same.-

 

 

Note the difference in diameter breech assembly factory Maxim-Nordenfelt mountain gun with the previous one is a breech replaced -

 

This same picture is the box spring brake recoil absorption with regulation (with a brass ring), and the ploughshare articulated (inverted) which fixed the weapon to the ground.-

And Matorras gun were manufactured using the mountain gun you see above, so that it never changed its breech, used only bringing the factory. Look at the photo of the note above which looks a Matorras from behind (Photo Breech block "Maxim-Nordenfelt System") under the QF13.-

 

Later I will write on the Matorras.-

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

Hi

 

If ordered by models, the breech block used by the Krupp 75mm in the Argentine Army are:

 

• Model 1880 ............... ......... Krupp breech sliding block

• Model 1884 ............... .. ...... Krupp breech sliding block

• Model 1884/1898 ......... .......Krupp breech was replaced by one of the Maxim-Nordenfelt System

• Model 1898 ............. ... ........Maxim -Nordenfelt System Breech placed in factory

• Model 1905 (1896nA?) ........ Welin Breech

• Model 1909 .......................... Welin Breech

 

 

I repeat, the Sellstrom-Nordenfelt breech, Never Existed

 

I show a picture of the service manual, “Descripción de Material de Artillería 7,5cm L/30 M909”, which shows the barrel of Krupp 75mm / L30   Modelo Argentino, 1909

Where you see (if very enlarged the figure), in the “Fig.1 – Vista de la derecha”, the conical threaded area which engages the breech Welin, Indicated by letter D.

In the “Fig.3 – Visto de atrás”, front view of the six areas threaded and two flat.-

I think this is demonstrated that the Welin breech were factory.-

 

UPGRADES

A certain number of guns it was added a buffer system to use as mechanized trailer

Krupp 75mm modified.- Rojas City, Province of Buenos Aires

 

Later the wooden wheels were replaced by pneumatic tyre.-

Krupp modified 75mm. Colegio Militar de la Nación Museum.-

 

But the biggest change made in the Arsenals of the Argentine Army was in the late 20s with the complete change of the carriage by the "boxtrail" type. Only used Krupp 1909 original, the barrel with its breech block Welin and the recoil absorption brake.-

I do not know how many were modified but some are preserved, and there are pictures of them field maneuvers, so one can say that they were not few.-

 Krupp 75mm Mod.1909 modified "boxtrail" carriage. Colegio Militar de la Nación Museum.-

 

 

There are comments in this modification intervened Swedish or German experts.-

 

Regars

 

Eduardo

 

 

Eduardo, I think the modification of the Argentine Krupp 1909 L30 was indeed done by "Bofors" staff (Krupp staff posted at Bofors or working abroad under Bofors cover) and not by HIH or Rheinmetall.

Why?

1. Argentina was a Krupp and therefore Bofors client. Bofors was under Krupp influence and had taken over many commercial contacts. As you can see from the picture of the modification of the Krupp 1909 with Bofors 1933 split trail carriage they were offering to modify Argentine guns. This particular option was probably too expensive and not considered worthwhile. So they opted for the boxtrail. Later a huge Bofors order would follow for a new generation of 75mm guns;

2. The two equilibrators on your close up were a common feature with Bofors modifications and new designs in the 1920s and 30s. You can also see them on the modified Krupp 1909 cavalry guns. You can find many examples, like Swiss 75mm guns modified by Bofors and the unique Bofors 75mm in Portugal.

3. The boxtrail of the Argentine Krupp 1909 after modification is roughly similar to the boxtrail of the lFH16 (used on the HIH conversions), but it differs on several details (note the sharply declining space between the front legs and the arrangement on the rear part). Nevertheless this type of modification is very, very close to the one HIH carried out in the Netherlands around 1926 (Bofors lost that bid). So it could be inspired by Rheinmetall that controlled HIH and was by the late 20s itself under Krupp control (like Bofors). No doubt solutions and designs were shared freely (I have seen records of staff hopping from one company to another in the 30s). I think a somewhat similar modification was carried out in Bulgaria by Krupp/Bofors/Rheinmetall staff, but the Turkish order that you mention was carried out by Bochumer Verein and not by Krupp (though probably several companies among which definitely HIH Siderius campaigned to get that order).

4. HIH and later HIH Siderius tried to get Argentine orders but as far as I know they never won (it would have been mentioned in their records).

Anyway I dont think this gun was modified in large numbers. Possibly 8 or 12 and as you said there was only one Cavalry regiment using these. But it is a great example and I think we are close to solving this mystery now. Keep up the good work and share more info please!

Kind regards,
Nuyt

Thanks, I actually meant with "equilibrators" the two horns on both sides of the barrel. The suspension is indeed also of the typical Bofors type.
Saludos,

Hi

 

Going back to the Krupp guns with Maxim-Nordenfelt breech system (a more primitive and simple design that the Welin type breech)  There are two Krupp cannons that changed,  those of years 1895 and 1898, but were conducted in 1927 and 1945.

The first was an attempt, in 1927, to produce an anti-aircraft gun using the barrel of a Krupp 1895 with breech type Maxim-Nordenfelt, placed to replace the original breech, to which is added a recoil absorption system, an equilibrators, etc. .

He was appointed  “Cañón Antiaéreo Krupp de 75 mm L/24  Modelo Argentino 1927”

Probably they built 6/8 but not continued its development because the poor performance in vertical shot, a low-power ammunition, and their L / 24 barrel too short. In addition to its design was antiquated and that the targeting system was elementary-

In 1928 it was replaced by the far superior anti-aircraft gun Cañón Antiaéreo Skoda C.7,65 cm L / 50 Modelo 1928.-

 

Cañón Antiaéreo Krupp de 75 mm L/24  Modelo Argentino 1927

Museo de Armas del Círculo Militar.-

 

Caras y Caretas 1935. Magazine.-

 

In the mid 40s, the army began to design a  infantry gun, and to achieve this was thought also make use of mountain gun that were on deposit.

Was taken the barrel of the “Cañón de montaña Krupp 75mm L / 13 Modelo Argentino 1898”   , and reformed it by adding a brake system and recuperator

 

Cañón de montaña Krupp 75mm L / 13 Modelo Argentino 1898 (fabricado en Essen en 1899) 

Museo de Armas del Círculo Militar (ver sello de fábrica y Escudo Nacional) 

http://estoslugares.blogspot.com.ar/2013/03/museo-de-armas-de-la-nacion-palacio-paz.html

 

 

The following photo is the model of Krupp to which Took off his barrel, and as we see, had the breech Maxim-Nordenfelt factory (it was not a breech changed as in the case of Krupp AA Model 1927, and it shows little difference in diameters and continuity barrel and breech assembly just below the marks and the National Emblem) .-

 

 

 

In the next picture looks the barrel, already modified and mounted in a "cañón de infantería Modelo Argentino Matorras  75mm L / 13” which entered service in 1945.

It was released in the arsenals of Rio Tercero (Córdoba).-

 

Discarded carriages were auctioned in the 30s, and one of the pages that showed the forista Pat (October 18, 2011) at the start of this thread

http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/sold_german.htm

shows an ugly artisanal gun mounted on one of these carriages of surplus.-

 

 

Original 1875 Krupp Cannon

 

“El origen del Matorras”

“Cañones fabricados en Fábrica Militar Río Tercero”.

 

Fotos Sr. Roberto Britos

http://www.historiaderiotercero.com

 

Note that in the picture carries the date 1943, so it should be a prototype.-

In the picture below, the model entered service in the year 1945.-

 

 

Cañón de infantería Modelo Argentino Matorras  75mm L / 13

Museo de Armas del Círculo Militar

 

 

With this I finish 75mm Krupp show that belonged to the Argentine Army. I pretended not expose recorded history (documents, books or authors that investigated little or much about it), just show the guns that have been preserved, that they can see, touch, measure, read their inscriptions, etc. And now you know where to locate.

And discuss what each museum has registered about them.-

 

However, Krupp sold guns and howitzers from 1880-1911 and in sizes 75mm, 105mm, 130mm, 150mm, including coastal defense guns of 240mm.-

I have pictures of almost all them.-

The Argentine Army was in service or were offered to sell a particular quantity of guns with designs that were not similar to those using other countries.-

For example, I think the Welin breech block was used by Krupp in field gun or a howitzer, only by Argentina (in both Krupp 75mm) and Japan (I've only seen in the Krupp howitzer 15cm Type38 preserved in the Military-Historical Museum of the Pacific Fleet, de Vladivostok, Russia.-

The type 38 corresponds to the year 1905 and coincides with the year of our first Krupp 75mm, with Welin breech block (also 1905)

 

 

I hope that this will have clarified some doubts and to have served to investigating the topic showing new ways to analyze. If you need clarification, just ask and I will try to answer.

 

Regards

 

 

Eduardo

Hi

 

Additional comments and details of the mounting "boxtrail" of the "Krupp 7,5cm L30 de Caballería"

It can be seen that the two specimens preserved are completely the same, ie they were not "experimental models" or "handmade", they were manufactured with high quality and good finishing, both in their materials and in the workmanship employed.

 

 

The two have recorded in the over carriage a really relevant data, and is the date they were modified

 

 

This means that they were cannons Argentine Model 1909 modified in 1923, and shows that they were possibly of the first guns that changed their simple carriage for another one of "boxtrail" type

 

 

If modified in 1923 can not have been reformed with German assistance, nor in Germany, so it is much more likely (as they say in the Historical Museum) to be modified in our Arsenals (with the help of Bofors ??)

 

Regards

 

Eduardo

Hi

 

In the"Museo Histórico del Ejercito de Ciudadela", there are two photos in which you can see the "Krupp 7.5cm L30 Cavalry - Model 1909/23" when they were being tested.

 

The fact that in both photos only the "gunner aiming" near the canyon is seen and there are no service personnel surrounding it, shows that it is not a question of military maneuvers as in the case of the picture of "Caras y Caretas" already presented.

 

 

Also note the number of "observers" and control personnel with some element of "measurement"

 

Regards 

 

Eduardo

Further to the Model 1927 A.A. gun, from Comando en Jefe del Ejército, Cronologia Militar Argentina: 1806-1980 (Editorial Clio, Buenos Aires. 1983) pag239

"Anti-aircraft cannon built in 1927 at the Esteban de Luca Arsenal employing the barrel of 1896 materiel L28 modified to 7,5 L.30."

 

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 10th of February 2017 02:24:47 PM

In 1930 there were three horse artillery Groups, ( Grupos de Artilleria a Caballo) ,the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Each Grupo had two batteries each: 1 with four Krupp 75 mm L.30 Mod. 1909 , the other with 4 Schneider Schneider 105mm L.12,4 105 mm howitzers) I On I January 1943, Grupos No. 2 and 3 were disbanded, and their troops and equipment assigned to the newly created Regimientos de Artilleria a Caballo, (No. 1 and No.2) each with two groups of 4 guns each as per above.

The Argentine Army Purchasing Commission mentioned in that book of yours included 200 senor officers, as well as subalterns and Non-coms each of whim were specialists in their own particular branch of the service, They selected the small arms, artillery, engineers and medical equipment, but material for the Air Service, which was still part of the army. as well.

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 10th of February 2017 08:52:36 PM

At least 12 were issued to the units. This doe not take into account any other guns stored in Depots(Arsenales) through the country. The U.S. G2 reports I have in my possession do not differentiate in this particular case. They list either 516 or 520 Model 1909s-The Military Attaché Report of 25 July 1940, for example lists 16 mod. 1909s issued, BUT. bear in mid that this model was also employed as an infantry accompanying gun and that other artillery units units would be created post June 1943

Here's another photo of a Model 1909 being loaded into a railways flatcar during  maneuvers .c. 1936..

 

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Friday 10th of February 2017 10:30:30 PM

The true source of the Crusader Self Propelled gun, Krupp 75 mm L.30 ,of. 1909 version right (behind, you can see another version armed with the Bofors 75 mm L.40 Mod. 1935 cannon.



M9 half track with the Krupp 75mm L.30 mod. 1909 piece- Same source as above as uploaded in the TANKS! website by Arne Brunner back in 2000.

 

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Sunday 12th of February 2017 07:42:01 AM

The Mellstrom Breech block

Previously,and relying on some Argentine publications referred to the interrupted screw breech block adopted by the Argentine Army for its Krupp 75 mmL.24 model 1895 and 75 mm L.28 mod. 1898 field guns as well as the Krupp m75 mm L.13 mod. 1896 and 1898 mountain guns as Sellstrom. They were in error and so was I, when I attributed it to the mention in General Dick's book as "Mellstrom", which I dismissed as a spelling error.. But apparently it was correct.

I refer you to a research paper presented in the first International Congress of Argentine Military History, which for the benefit of those who do not posses the Spanish language I will translate (see original page supra)

I refer to the third paragraph, 14th line from the top. To make it the text more coherent I include some revelant information in parenthesis.

"The president of the (armaments purchasing ) commission (General Viejobueno) proposed , after an arrangement(had been) reached with the house of Krupp,within the terms (of a contract) the adoption of the Mellstrom breech block, that is to say Maxim Nordenfelt's"

On the 4th paragraph, the author goes on to say that the Argentine government and Krupp each paid £;5.000 , that I to say £ 10.000 for the right to manufacture said breech block at Krupp or elsewhere."

 

In another page, which I will reproduce if so required, the authors explains that the Mellstrom breech block was also retrofitted to soof the older Kruppp models owned by the Argentine Army

 

 

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Sunday 12th of February 2017 07:43:36 AM

-- Edited by Brunner88 on Sunday 12th of February 2017 11:06:15 PM