Landships II

dickster · Corporal

German flak artillery ww1

K-Flak · Lieutenant

Hi Dick,

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many hundreds of Russian 76.2 mm gun barrels of M 1902 were used as O-Flak, W-Flak, E-Flak, R�der-Flak, S-Flak and K-Flak� in WWI. Barrels of M 1900 were used for R�der-Flak [R�der=wheels] as well. Therefore it is not easy or even impossible to attribute your shell casing to a specific type of the afore mentioned guns, mobile or immobile, horse-drawn or fixed on sockets, vehicles, lorries, railway waggons or �berlandwagen.

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O = ortsfest (immobil)

W = Wagen

E = Eisenbahn(railway)

S = Sockel (socket)

K = Kraftwagen

-- Edited by K-Flak on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 02:35:14 PM

-- Edited by K-Flak on Wednesday 16th of November 2011 02:35:36 PM

dickster · Corporal

K-Flak; Thanks�for the reply! I did'nt think it would be easy to attribute my shell casing to a specific gun, as so many were captured and used. I guess it would be impossible to know wich units used the captured Russian Flak� guns. I guess I assumed that it would be an "S" [sockel gun]. Does anyone have a photo of this gun being used by the German Flak artillery, not that we would know if its 1900 or 1902 gun being used? Your help is appreciated.� Dick

K-Flak · Lieutenant

Here is a well-known picture of 7.62 cm S-Flak L/30 (Krupp) with Russian 02:

K-Flak · Lieutenant

In a hurry I could compile the following data:

The first group of captured Russian field guns was used to produce O-Flak, which was used in the German Etappe and homeland (home defence). The use of captured Russian shrapnell was soon abandoned (too dangerous for own troops). Then double fuze 96 n.A. was used and finally Granatmunition by Rheinmetall. Number of O-Flak 7.62 is given with 258 by Rheinmetall plus 48 by Krupp.

Later captured Russian field guns were used for the production of 3 main types of guns:

1) 15 batteries with 60 guns (M 1900) of horse-drawn (R�der-)Flak in Flakbatterie No. 520 to 534.�

2) 30 batteries with 120 guns (M 1902) of horse-drawn Flak (Krupp) in Flakbatterie No. 536 to 565.

3) 30 batteries S-Flak (M 1902, Krupp) with 120 guns in Flakbatterie No. 566 to 595.�

Furthermore, there were 4 guns of W-Flak with the Russian barrels. Another 6 built three railway-waggons for AA use and 4 guns were used for Flakbatterie No. 17 and 18 (Raupenwagen-Flak = guns set on �berlandwagen, the transport version of A7V).

Finally 50 K-Flak (Henschel) were built with modified barrels 02.

Total 670 guns if I counted correct, roughly 1/3 of the German WWI Flak.

The experts of the field artillery can elaborate now about the differences between Russian 00 and 02 guns. It is not my field of main interest.�

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-- Edited by K-Flak on Friday 18th of November 2011 10:55:07 AM

dickster · Corporal

Thanks K-Flak for the information, it helps alot. Have you seen the website� bulgarianartillery ? They have a few units listed, Sachen I think. It seems that most of the units that used these captured Russian artillery guns were deployed on the Eastern front! Does that make sense???

K-Flak · Lieutenant

Russian guns were used as Flak by the Germans on all European theaters of war. As well the French guns (or rather barrels put in other mountings) were used in all places. IMHO there was no rule like Russian guns only for the East, French only for the West.

However, one can see that the overwhelming majority of German light and heavy K-Flak served in the West. As well the outdated 9 cm guns were probably serving mostly in the home defence of the Reich. So, former Russian guns were rather dominating in other places.

The data on the Bulgarian website show (if we assume 4 guns for a battery and 2 for a platoon/Zug) 20 Russian barrels, 6 German (4 old 9cm, 2 K-Flak) and 4 French. So, in this Macedonian or Balkan theatre of war the Russian barrels were 2/3 of the total.�

O-Flak Z�ge (plural of Zug = platoon) with 7.62 cm hat the numbers 1-8, 9-14, 23-26, 31-53, 54-91, 97-105 and 107, 108-119 [grouped in the order of date of estabishment]. W-Flak Z�ge carried the numbers 29 and 30.� Horse-drawn R�der-Flak with the numbers 11-17 and 66 used re-worked Russian and Belgian barrels with new 7.7 cm. There must havbe been other Z�ge or Batterien to fill up the above mentioned number of Flak of "Russian descend". �

CharlieC · Legend

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The French M1897 guns converted to flak used the barrel and recoil assembly as a unit. Many of the French 75mm guns were bored out to accept German 7.7cm ammunition. The Russian M1902 guns were converted similarly but the barrels couldn't be bored out due to brittleness of the Russian steel - the Germans had to manufacture 76.2mm ammunition for these guns. I think the M1900 guns would have been converted by using the barrel only - no recoil assembly since the M1900 had a fairly complicated recoil arrangement of the carriage moving back along the trail - recuperation was done by a stack of rubber donuts inside the trail. (Most of this is from Herbert Jager's book).

Regards,

Charlie

K-Flak · Lieutenant

Correction concerning:

"Number of O-Flak 7.62 is given with 258 by Rheinmetall plus 48 by Krupp."

There are contradictions in different sources. The above counting seems to include a double counting of 48 or even 58 guns. Therefore the real total could be rather around 612 and establish nearly 1/4 of all German Fla guns.

The latter number is given with 2558 or 2576 (without 20 mm and MG).�

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K-Flak · Lieutenant

The 7.62 cm R�derflak (Russian 00) by Krupp used the Russian barrell with break. However, the rubber recoil was replaced by a recoil spring. Wheels and parts of 10 cm Lafette 04 were used for the gun carriage.

gemsco · Captain

Re-use of Belgian barrels !!!

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Unknown to me but indeed possible.

The Belgian 75 mm is NOT the same as the French one. The Belgian one is more advanced. But it is technically possible that the German could re-use the Belgian barrel. gemsco

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K-Flak · Lieutenant

It is not only possible, it is indisputable fact. wink

16 Belgian barrels were re-used by the German Army Flak in WWI:

14 barrels of the Belgian field gun were re-worked to German 77 mm and put into carriages of the Russian field howitzer.

Another 2 Belgian barrells were laid into the "Ehrhardtsche Haubitzlafetten" (howitzer carriages determined for test purposes) No. 340 and 345.

Both constructions were improvised Fla guns (they could also fight ground targets) and could not fire in more than 45� angle, not steep enough for a good Flak.

gemsco · Captain

Thank you K-Flak. We do not question your knowledge on this subject. Now we have to find out from where they came !

For more data on the Belgian 75 mm, go to www.editionsdupatrimoine.be

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K-Flak · Lieutenant

This new question is a lot harder to answer (if possible at all).

Most of the Flak documents were lost already in November 1918 and later in 1944/45, the rest is "resting" in different archives in Germany and abroad.�

In theory Rheinmetall could have documents but this is doubtful too.

The other way around I doubt that the Belgian army knew/knows how many guns fell into German hands in good condition from August to October 1914. And they can hardly know which guns were re-used for German Flak.

dickster · Corporal

I have one more question about the Flak Artillery. Can anyone tell me when the "winged grenade" was first used on the Flak Artillery shoulder boards?? Was it in 1914-15 or later??�� Dick Roback

K-Flak · Lieutenant

I think I remember an order which put this in use in March 1917. Note, the early BAK were mostly coming from normal artillery units in 1914/15 and the Flak was made a part of the new Luftstreitkr�fte in Fall 1916. However, this question is rather for uniform experts and nothing for me. So, I could be wrong. �

-- Edited by K-Flak on Tuesday 24th of January 2012 05:07:29 PM

dickster · Corporal

Hi; I realize this is an old topic, but I'm wondering about Flak Artillery shoulder straps. I have seen those with the O,K,W & S but have never seen a Flak Artillery strap with an E on it. Can anyone tell me if they ever had Flak Artillery straps with an E for the Eisenbahn/Railway troops??? Cheers Dick