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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Artillery -> The Schneider BS - is it B.S?
Post Info TOPIC: The Schneider BS - is it B.S?
James H


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The Schneider BS - is it B.S?
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It's the accepted wisdom that the 75mm BS stands for Blockhaus Schneider. Thinking about it, I wonder if that's true.

It was fitted to the CA in a barbette. What has that got to do with a blockhaus? Fair enough, it was in a fixed casemate on the Renault FT 75 BS, but it was called the BS before that.

I am increasingly doubtful that the CA in Schneider CA stood for char d'assaut, especially since the CA3 became the CD, and I can't think what the D might have stood for.

Is it possible that, like Renault, Schneider used two-letter product codes, and BS was simply the next one available?

IMO it's not the most romantic name for a hotel.



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CharlieC


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Afaik the BS - "Blockhaus Schneider" started out as a fortress gun - similar

to the Nordenfeldts fitted to the A7Vs. I don't know why the French would use a German term for a fortification. French guns certainly didn't use arbitrary codes as suffixes - TR "tir rapide", GPF "grande puissance Filloux".

There is a comment by one of our French colleagues in a thread on the name of the Renault FT that "CA1" is correct. Lawrynowicz in his book on the Schneider/St Chamond says the name of the Schneider tank went through a number of changes. Initially it was "tracteurs Estienne" > chars Schneider >

chars CA > Schneider CA. Estienne introduced the term "chars d'assaut'.

Regards,

Charlie



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Roger Todd


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CharlieC wrote:
...I don't know why the French would use a German term for a fortification.

I have no idea either - perhaps Francois knows? With luck he may check this thread.

In the meantime, I have seen the term blockhaus used by a Frenchman - the Victorian sci-fi writer and artist Albert Robida referred to his future tank-like armoured vehicles as Les Blockhaus Roulants (see an excerpt from 'La Guerre au Vingtieme Siecle' written in 1887 and reproduced in 'The Tale of the Next Great War 1871-1914', ed. I.F. Clarke, pp.96/97).



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TinCanTadpole


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It's common enough for languages to borrow well-known terms from other tongues - particularly neighbouring ones (how much English would we lose if we had to stop using French words!), but how well-known is "blockhaus" likely to have been in France 100 years ago? I can imagine such a word being used colloquially, but surely it wouldn't be so well known as to be used in an official designation? (I'm assuming that BS is an official designation?)

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Roger Todd


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As I say, Albert Robida used it in a very popular 1887 book, so maybe the term was more widespread in France at the turn of the 20th century than we're giving credit for? I think only someone like Francois can answer that, certainly not we Anglophones!

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Ralph Lovett


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Related to the question about the Schneider marks, I understand the A.BS. marks found on light artillery such as the 75mm mle'97 stand for "Atelier de Construction de Bourges Schneider".

These are online references that indicate the meaning of the A.BS marks:

 

http://www.fortduparmont.com/t391-abreviation-munitions-francaises

 

http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/t54282-abreviation-munitions-francaises

 

http://ator1149.home.xs4all.nl/wfm/ww1/ammunition1.html

 

R/

Ralph

 







-- Edited by Ralph Lovett on Saturday 21st of April 2012 02:29:36 PM

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James H


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This is all very interesting, AVLF's information especially so. As I understand it, this weapon began life as a sort of trench mortar, the Schneider mortier de tranchée 75 mm court M1915, and was adapted for use in the CA, becoming the M1916. P. Malmassari says it was "muni d'un affût special à frein et disposé dans un blockhaus". (Mr. Todd beat me to it in citing Albert Robida) 

Presumably, blockhaus in this context means the bit of the Tank it was mounted in. I can't see how it can apply just to the shield. Anyway, the BS designation didn't seem to make sense, but AVLF's reference appears to clear that up.

On the other hand, I'm still not sure that CA stood for char d'assaut. (Incidentally, the CA didn't become the CA1 until the prospect of a CA2, just as the British Tanks didn't become the Mk I until the Mks II & II were ordered) I might be extremely misguided about this, but if CA did stand for char d'assaut, what did CD stand for when it was applied to the modified versions? That's what made me think that CA was just a job number.



-- Edited by James H on Saturday 21st of April 2012 04:45:05 PM

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TinCanTadpole


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James H wrote:

Presumably, blockhaus in this context means the bit of the Tank it was mounted in. I can't see how it can apply just to the shield. Anyway, the BS designation didn't seem to make sense, but AVLF's reference appears to clear that up.

 I had thought when reading this thread that Blockhaus Schneider would signify a gun designed for Blockhaus use and appropriated for tanks, but if that's not the case, then I suggest that the entire tank is the Blockhaus, not just "the bit of the Tank it was mounted in".

Guy writes that the term was commonly used to describe small forts and strongholds, especially colonial ones; what is a tank if not a small (mobile) fort?

Or, in the case of Schneiders and especially StChamonds when reaching a trench, a small immobile fort wink



-- Edited by TinCanTadpole on Saturday 21st of April 2012 02:31:43 PM

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ALVF


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Hello,

Yes, the "75 B.S" means 75 Blockaus Schneider.I write BLOCKAUS and not the german term BLOCKHAUS because the Schneider Works write "Blockaus" in their very heavy (more that 4 pounds!) catalogue of 1917 year.
But the great "Manuel des munitions" dated 1920 write "BLOCKHAUS SCHNEIDER" for "75 B.S"!
In 1918, the french texts write often "75 S" only for the 75 mm weapon of Schneider and FT 75 B.S tanks.
In french Army, the term "Blockhaus" is very often used in 1890-1914 pre-war years.It is the name for small forts built in colonial territories to protect railway and small villages.In mountain country (including french Alps and Pyrénées mountains), the name "Blockhaus" is used since 19th Century for small fortified buildings.
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.

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ALVF


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Hello,

The P Malmassari answer for 75 B.S is good!
A.Bs is the mark for the "Atelier de Bourges" former known as "Fonderie de Bourges", it is the great work for building french artillery guns barrels.It is a STATE Military works in which many famous french artillery officers as Baquet, Filloux and others have worked some times and often long time as Capitaine then Commandant Filloux during 1901-1913 years.
Schneider is a private works.
In many books and in many web sites, it is written that 75 mm modèle 1897 were building in Schneider works, it is a STUPIDITY.
The 75 modèle 1897 was made only in french state military works: the guns in "Fonderie de Bourges", later named "Atelier de Bourges", the recoil mechanism in "Atelier de Puteaux" and other parts in others military works (carriages, limbers, etc...).
Yours sincerely,
Guy François.



-- Edited by ALVF on Saturday 21st of April 2012 08:35:39 PM

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Ian Armstrong


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Of course "Schneider" is a very Germanic name! Possibly the issue with the Alsace-Lorraine areas cming and going between French and german jurisdiction might add to this issue of Germaninc names.

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James H


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The family wasn't called Schneider originally. A forebear changed it when they moved to Lorraine in the 17th century.



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