Landships II

Vilkata · Brigadier

Check this out! Never seen this thing before.

28juni14 · Hero

I'm not at my home at the moment, so I can't get to my files. I will tell you it is an Italian 380mm (? not sure) Corps piece. Several of the mobile mounted versions were captured during the distruction of the 2nd Army @ Caparetto.

Treadhead · Major

Wow!! Vil....that is one very interesting piece pard'

One would think it was self-propelled, since I don't see {at first glance} any real and proper tow point....but then, not seeing the front of this wee beastie I cannot also tell if there are any accomodations for drivers vision ports, etc.

Can say that I would really liie some more info on this thing!....

Pics as well

Tread.

EDIT: Wait a minute!.....is that open at the back??..?
And is that a ramp at the rear?....It seems much too small to be an aritllery spade.....

-- Edited by Treadhead at 00:33, 2005-12-16

-- Edited by Treadhead at 00:34, 2005-12-16

Roger Todd · Legend

It's not an SPG, and as far as I recall, it's a 305mm 17-calibre howitzer:

There's an Italian site with loads of these photos, but I can't find it at the moment...

EDIT: I am very drunk at the moment, having been out for a work Chrimbo do, so I am typing at one word per minute - please bare with me - but here are a couple of links or two:

Huge, cumbersome Italian gun carriage:

Ah go on, shift the bugger...

And again:

Is there no end?

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 02:49, 2005-12-16

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 03:20, 2005-12-16

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 03:22, 2005-12-16

JamesH · Major

The bit of the caption that is visible appears to say that the gun stood at Udine-Codroipo, which is in Northern Italy,about 60 miles east of Vittorio Veneto. The script is German, so presumably this a German or Austrian picture of the captured gun. It would be a help to be able to read the rest of the caption, but the visible part of the second line refers to "motive power" and "forwards". Kraft can be difficult to translate without context, but, in view of Roger's pictures, it must mean that motive power was required to move it.

Ah. Udine seems to be about halfway between Vittorio Veneto and Caporetto, which I hadn't realised is now in Slovenia and called Kobarid.

-- Edited by JamesH at 03:03, 2005-12-16

Roger Todd · Legend

I'd say 'Yes' but I am really feeling the effects of el vino del plonko, so here's another random fat Italian gun being dragged around:

Here are barrels of the good old 305s:

An alternative carriage (which you can get as a nice 1/35 scale kit, incidentally):

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 03:14, 2005-12-16

Vilkata · Brigadier

Enjoy your intoxication Roger!

I am often mildly intoxicated on this forum when I post late at night...

Off to get another beer... Mmm, there isn't anything like good dark stout on a cold winter night.

Thank you a bunch for posting pictures of those ridiculously gigantic gun carriages! Incredibly cool stuff!

---Vil.

Tim R · Hero

Hey Guys

If you like Italian Artillery, I would recommend,if you don't have it (L'ARTIGLIERIA ITALIANA NELLA GRANDE GUERRA) it is an incredible book.

All the Best

Tim R.

Centurion · Legend

From memory (I'll check when I get hom. on Sat.) the design of carriage was to allow it to be transported on narrow alpine roads. It has a relatively narrow track.

Roger Todd · Legend

Vilkata wrote:

Enjoy your intoxication Roger! I am often mildly intoxicated on this forum when I post late at night... Off to get another beer... Mmm, there isn't anything like good dark stout on a cold winter night. Thank you a bunch for posting pictures of those ridiculously gigantic gun carriages! Incredibly cool stuff! ---Vil.

Thanks Vilkata! I certainly enjoyed the intoxication, but I haven't been enjoying the after-effects, I think I've just about recovered now...

Anyhoo, Tim, thanks for the heads-up on the book (I think it's on the Landships recommended books page IIRC), I may look into getting that. Robert, thanks for the info about the reason for the odd design, I suspected it might have been something like that.

Meanwhile, here's that model kit I mentioned of the other type of carriage:

Made in 1/35 scale by Criel Models:

http://www.crielmodel.it/english/mil_veh.htm

They do a lot of Great War stuff!

Treadhead · Major

Excellent thread you guys, especially you Roger

You are indeed a real trooper working past all the effects of 'la vida loca' and posting all of those swell pics!

Very enjoyable.

Did I hear someone say there is a 1/35th kit of this Italian piece of arty?

If so, this thing wouldn't be that hard to scratch up, and would definitely be one of the more unique pieces on the modeling contest table...

Tread.

EDIT: Ooops!.....guess you answered my query before I had a chance to type the question!.....

-- Edited by Treadhead at 16:04, 2005-12-16

Roger Todd · Legend

No trouble, Treadders, and at last I've recovered... Never again (as I always say...).

Very good idea, to scratchbuild that bizarre monster - the Criel Models kit would be a very good start, what with the barrel, cradle and even (I think) the various wheels and handles. Here are a couple more pics of the captured gun for you to be getting on with:

Notice how thin the wheel is without the pattens...

Tim R · Hero

Roger

You will not be disappointed, It is an incredible book.I could make copies for you if would like, and send them to you.

All the Best

Tim R

Roger Todd · Legend

Tim, thank you for a characteristically generous offer (I'll email you off-board so as not to clog this thread up).

Treadhead · Major

Howdy All, Roger,

As usual, thx for all of the wonderful photos. All of which are going into my own library 'stash' of ref pics

{which reminds me, I've got to rearrange my hard drive...}
Also, thx for Creilmodels link, I don't suppose anyone knows who might carry them here in the State's?....Their website doesn't have a shopping cart and I was hoping for a source on this side of the big pond.

While you were there {at Creil Models}, did you happen to notice this wee beastie?

Also, in the second photo of your last picture post in this thread, the cannon itself wouldn't happen to be this gun would it?

....just curious.

Tread.

Roger Todd · Legend

Hiya Treadders,

I have seen that strange gun (the 'wee beastie', Mortaio da 210) before, but for some reason I couldn't find it on their site yesterday - thanks for posting that pic! I've tracked it down now...

The second model is of a 149mm gun, whereasthe second photo in my previous message (with the German caption) is a front view of that monster 305mm howitzer.

I've had a browse around Criel's site and you should be able to order from the States direct:

http://www.crielmodel.it/english/ordering.html

They don't have a shopping cart, to be sure, but they do accept orders by post, fax or email, and they do accept credit/debit cards (in which case I'd either write or fax, because an email won't be secure). If I were you, and you know what you would like to order, I'd just email them and ask what's the best way. I've never dealt with them before, but I have emailed other people when I've been unsure what to do and have always had positive responses, so I can't imagine why they'd be any different.

Treadhead · Major

Howdy Roger,

Many thx for the reply, but are you sure about that lower pic {in my post} being a 305?....it really seems to have a much longer barrel length, and a different silhouette than the shorter, fatter 305 of the original pic....

I also love the last pic of your first picture post, showing the rear turing apparatus which seems to show some sort of nifty gimble arrangement....very nice reference angle

Tread.

PostScript: My remarks about having a source on "this side of the pond" were based on both having the import cost already absorbed, and {hopefully} shortening the time frame normally associated with small-run offerings....
thx again pard'

Roger Todd · Legend

No, it's definitely the 305 - for a start, it's bloody gigantic, and second, you can see the triple cylinder affair atop the cradle, and thirdly, you can see that the buildings behind are the same as the ones behind the other photo before it, which is indubitably a 305. There is no way on God's green and lovely earth that it is anything as feeble as a 149...

Tim R · Hero

Hey Guys

According to the book I mentioned earlier, there were at least 4 different 305's in the Italian Arsenal. I will try and post the pictures tomorrow.

All the best

Tim R.

J Fullerton · Captain

Treadhead,
There are probably a number of US distributers of Cri-el models, but the one that I have used several times is:

http://www.rjproducts.com/

eugene · Field Marshal

what a find great site

but I think ordering in jadar from the US might come out cheaper than this site

Tim R · Hero

Ok Guys as promised here are a few pictures of the different 305�s in the book I mentioned earlier { L�ARTIGLIERIA ITALIANA}

All the best

Tim R.

Roger Todd · Legend

Very nice, many thanks Tim!

As I see it there are three types there:

the 305/17 howitzer (obice) on the strange four-wheeled carriage;

the 305/17 howitzer on a siege carriage, with open frames (I'm guessing the barrel and cradle are the same as on the wheeled gun);

a long-barrelled 305 (did the caption say 40 calibres long?), presumably a naval gun, as Italian battleships carried 40-calibre 305s.

Tim R · Hero

Roger

3053 states it is the Cannone da 305/46 RM

3054 states it is the Cannone da 305/40 RM

Stand by I am going to post a rather awesome looking barge with a huge 305/46 on it.

All the Best

Tim R

Roger Todd · Legend

Ah, so it does, I misread it, thanks Tim!

I've just looked up some stats, and the Italian dreadnoughts carried the 305/46, and their last two classes of predreadnoughts carried the 305/40, so I should imagine that's where these two big guns come from.

I look forward to the barge photo! For some reason, the Italians were very fond of using very rickety looking barges and pontoons to carry huge guns (there was the 'Faa di Bruno', a spectaularly ugly thing that used, I believe, to be a floating crane and had a twin 15" turret put on it). And in the late nineteenth century, the Italians built two tiny little steam gunboats each equipped with a single 100-ton Krupp 406mm breechloader! They look quite absurd, though impressive...

-- Edited by Roger Todd at 22:37, 2005-12-18

Tim R · Hero

Here it is 305/46 on a Barge.

Tim R.

Tim R · Hero

Roger

Do you have any pictures of those barges you were talking about?. My book is full of them, but only from the WW1 era.

All The Best

Tim R.

{By the way I have not got around to answering your email, Sorry, I will get to it tonight}.

Roger Todd · Legend

Fab picture Tim! I wouldn't want to be around when it was fired...

I've got a copy of 'Warship' with an article on Armstrong and the Italian Navy, there are a couple of pics in there which I'll scan in (I've done one, give me a few minutes and I'll get the others done).

BTW, don't worry about the email!

JamesH · Major

If it helps, the caption on the cover of Roger's book reads, "The Collapse (lit. breakdown) of the Italian Army in the Venice region. A captured heavy big gun in a village behind Udine" (which ties in with the caption to the earlier photograph)

Roger Todd · Legend

My German is non-existent so many thanks for that JH.

Tim, here's a photo of one of those gunboats:

Two were built, 'Castore' and 'Polluce' (above is 'Polluce' firing its 120-ton Krupp gun - 120-tons, even heavier than I remembered! And that on a boat displacing under 700-tons!). I'll email everything else to you direct so as not to clog up the thread...

Tim R · Hero

Thanks a Million Roger, I have a strange fascination with Military water craft of this period.

All the Best

Tim R.

GrzeM · Sergeant

Don't belive such small ship could have fired such huge gun!!!
Really don't belive.

BTW, I had that four wheeled Italian gun in one of the books I read during childhood - I thought that it was Troyan Horse.

G.

Roger Todd · Legend

I know, it's ridiculous, isn't it? Note the way everyone on board is clustered as far towards the other end from the gun as possible...

That book you saw the weird four-wheeled gun in, it wasn't Curt Johnson's 'Artillery' was it? That's the first place I ever saw a photo of it.

SASH155 · Major

This huge weird looking mount was called a "de Stefano". The Italians seemed somehow to have been allergic to railroad guns (with the notable exception of a 380mm L/40 M-1914 piece) and used these extremely strange and unique (no-one else used anything remotely approaching these behemoths) carriages to mount a variety of usually ex-naval ordnance, including that 305mm Obice da 305/17 modello 1916 (or modello 1917) howitzer and the 254mm Cannone da 254/40 modello 1889 and 1897 gun (the really long one in the photo below the 305mm howitzer). The smallest de Stefano's were the 203mm "Cannone da 203/40 modello 1897 and the 210mm "Mortaio da 210/8 M.D.S." (the "wee beastie") as stated earlier. The largest was the 305mm "Cannone da 305/40 modello 1901", a real beast that somwhat dwarfed its already enormous sisters. These things must have been real joys to try to move at all, no wonder some were captured at Caporeto.

-- Edited by SASH155 at 08:10, 2005-12-27

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

Wesley!

Can't you write an article for the Landships site on this huge gun. You only have to do the text - I'll fix the pix! PLEEEASE! You will of course be credited as author.

You seem to be such a guru when it comes to Arty!

SASH155 · Major

Sure, I could do that, and while we are at it could you post the English version of my article on the Krupp and Skoda 15cm howitzers? It's directly relevant to our endeavors. Just tell me where to send it for posting. Wesley

Peter Kempf · Field Marshal

Great!

Just send it to ww1tanker(at)telia.com!

Of course, you replace the (at) with a proper internet at - it's a trick here to fool those pesky spammers...