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Post Info TOPIC: The First Tank Battle
James H


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The First Tank Battle
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I have spent a good few exasperating hours dealing with this on Wikipedia, trying to disabuse those who seem to have got their information off the back of a sauce bottle. The second paragraph of the article on Cambrai http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cambrai_%281917%29 contains details of the three preceding French actions: Chemin des Dames (April 17, 132 Schneider), Moulin Laffaux (May 5, 32 Schneider & 16 Saint-Chamond), and Malmaison (Oct 23, 36 Schneider & 56 Saint-Chamond). That's all according to Jones, Rarey, & Icks, but it tallies with other accounts. I'm sure Michel will correct me. I can't remember now whether the rumour that Saint-Chamonds made their debut in April in a supporting role turned out to be true.

The French site does, indeed, state that 194 tanks took part, but we must face the disappointing possibility that people who write articles on French Wikipedia are just as likely to get things a about f as their anglophone cousins. It's not a figure I can produce from the sources I have.

And, of course, there was the use of Tanks by the British at Third Ypres earlier in 1917.

You'll notice that someone who calls himself Cap'n Jim has decided to re-elevate the disorientated U.S. railway engineers to the status of Combatant Nation.



-- Edited by James H on Tuesday 27th of November 2012 11:11:38 PM

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PDA


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By "tank battle" I mean the mass use of tanks, not tank-vs-tank. I know this has been discussed before but I can't find the thread: my apologies, James.

We hear a lot about 15th September 1916 when 30-odd Mark I tanks crawled into history, and we hear a lot about 20 November 1917 with its 400-odd Mark IVs. "Cambrai Day" is celebrated as the first mass use of tanks, or the first battle planned around tanks (although it would not have succeeded without the artillery), but is it?

Can anyone chime in with the French use of tanks? This French Wikipedia page seems to say that 200 tanks were used on 15 April 1917, by the French 5th Army. This English Wikipedia page says French tanks were used at the Battle of La Malmaison, 24 October 1917, but it doesn't say how many. Were there any other actions that pre-date Cambrai Day? Is there any more information about these French tank actions?



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PDA


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Thanks, James. What are your views on why the French tank attacks are often over-looked?



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James H


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PDA wrote:

Thanks, James. What are your views on why the French tank attacks are often over-looked?

Not by the French, they're not. They give plenty of credit to Estienne, Bossut, Mangin, etc, pausing only to observe that the English ruined everything by revealing the new weapon in Sept 1916. And British writers managed to distort history after the War - Liddell Hart, of course, and Fuller, who, quite apart from misrepresenting Cambrai, didn't like Estienne: http://63528.activeboard.com/t16319294/colonel-estienne-an-unflattering-appraisal/

And I'm afraid it has to be said that Americans can be equally guilty. Some writers concentrate on Patton and the brief period of U.S. activity from Sept 1918 to the exclusion of the entire French history.

It's an Anglocentric thing.



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CharlieC


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It's fairly obvious, even after a modest amount of research, that the French tried to work out how to use tanks long before they first went into

action at Berry au Bac on 16 April 1917. About 132 Schneider CA1s were committed in this attack. The casualties among the Schneiders were

very high mostly because the tanks approach march was conducted in daylight and the early model Schneider was very inflammable.

The French seem to have devoted a lot of thought and resources to the issue of how to use mechanisation of the Army to best effect. Certainly

the French doctrines and vehicles for improving the mobility and supply of artillery were far in advance of the other Allies.

Regards,

Charlie



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PDA


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I suspected an anglophone bias as well. Whilst I can use an online translator, it is really rather limiting in terms of the research question and understanding the answers.

Are there any books in English about French tank attacks similar to Boilerplate War or Tanks and Trenches?



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Albert


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PDA wrote:

I suspected an anglophone bias as well. Whilst I can use an online translator, it is really rather limiting in terms of the research question and understanding the answers.

Are there any books in English about French tank attacks similar to Boilerplate War or Tanks and Trenches?

 

http://aj-press.home.pl/gp29_euro.htm

Very good, but only on Schneider and St. Chamond. Renault FT is not covered.



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James H


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PDA wrote:

Are there any books in English about French tank attacks similar to Boilerplate War or Tanks and Trenches?

 If you can get hold of The Fighting Tanks Since 1916 by Jones, Rarey, & Icks, it's got 35 pages of French combat history, action by action, in considerable detail (plus Brit, Ger, & US, and so on up to 1933). You can read it online here: http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001622105 I really recommend it.

If you'd prefer a hand-held, you can get a facsimile copy here http://www.coachwhipbooks.com/titles/world-war-1-tanks.html A 1969 reprint shouldn't break the bank, either. A bit of googling will turn one up.



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Gwyn Evans


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Yes, I'd recommend Jones, Rarey and Icks just as James does. Well worth an investment if you spot one in a second hand shop (it can happen, it's where I got mine).

Gwyn

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Tanker


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Bonjour,

Here is a list from all French tank fights from the "Artillerie Spéciale" :

Artillerie Spéciale : Les combats de chars français de 1917 et 1918

Bon week-end - Michel



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PDA


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I forgot to say, until now, thank you, Michel, James, Gwyn and Albert.



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