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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Artillery -> Austro-Hungarian 18cm Belagerungskanone M.80 and 24cm Böhler heavy trench mortar M.16
Post Info TOPIC: Austro-Hungarian 18cm Belagerungskanone M.80 and 24cm Böhler heavy trench mortar M.16
SASH155


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Austro-Hungarian 18cm Belagerungskanone M.80 and 24cm Böhler heavy trench mortar M.16
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I want to point out that the four great action photos at the bottom of the entry on the 18cm Belagerungskanone M.80 are actually of the much more commonly seen 15cm M.99/04 field howitzer. The barrels on these guns are too long and slender and the breech ring is beveled (squared off). That of the 18cm M.80 siege gun was shorter and fatter, and its breech ring was cylindrical in cross-section. The field mount seen here in these photos has never been mentioned in use with the 18cm gun, which seems to have exclusively used the siege carriage. However, the 15cm M.94 and M.99/04 weapons were periodically used on the siege carriage. Another telling detail of the 15cm M.99/04 field howitzer was its wheels, which were heavily reinforced and characterized by thick, closely spaced, untapered spokes ending at the rim of the wheel in a distinctive rectangular reinforcement chock, probably made of brass or iron. The wheels of the earlier 15cm M.94 and 18cm M.80 were of somewhat lighter construction with conventionally tapered spokes that lacked the reinforcement chocks. 


The 24cm Böhler Minenwerfer (mortar) credited here originally to Britain was in fact a French Dumezil/Batignolles design, which was subsequently made under license in Britain and then Italy after its initial appearance in the Champagne Offensive of September 1915. There were two versions, short and long: Le matériel de 240mm court de tranchée (240mm C.T.) and the later long model called: Le matériel de 240mm long de tranchée (240mm L.T.). The Brits seemed to have copied only the short one; on the other hand the Italians used both models and even made longer versions unique to them. See Stéphane Ferrard's works on the subject of French "crapouillots". 


A note about artillery in general: proper English terminology for the missile fired by a gun or howitzer is "shell" or "projectile"; the word grenade is only used in English in reference to infantry hand thrown grenades, rifle-launched (STRIM, Viven-Bessier etc...) or specially designed launcher (M-79, M-203, RPG series, Panzerfaust etc...) fired grenades, or what are really in effect rockets in the cases of these last two. In English usage, "grenade", when used in the context of artillery, would mean the cargo of a shell that delivers sub-munitions or "bomblets"; otherwise, we are dealing with a Germanism, or a literal translation of the German word "Granate" ie: "Sprenggranate". True mortars (ie. Stokes, etc...), somewhat confusingly, fire bombs (there could be some debate however as regards the German Minenwerfers, as they were rifled and fired what resembles a large shell rather than a finned bomb). Another note: I notice that "Lafette" (mount in German) has been consistently misspelled as "Lavette", which is the French word for either dish cloth, or the insult for "drip", "wimp", "wuss", "pussy" etc...as in "Lui, ce n'est qu'une lavette" ("He's such a drip [wimp, wuss etc...]"). Thank you, and Merry Christmas to all.



-- Edited by SASH155 at 23:58, 2005-12-25

-- Edited by SASH155 at 00:04, 2005-12-26

-- Edited by SASH155 at 00:14, 2005-12-26

-- Edited by SASH155 at 01:02, 2005-12-26

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Wesley Thomas
Peter Kempf


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RE: Austro-Hungarian 18cm Belagerungskanone M.80
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Point taken, on all counts!


I think the germanisms (including the unfortunate lavette for lafette) are caused by me having another germanic language as my mother tongue: namely swedish. What would be the proper word in english? In swedish you actually say lavett...


 



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/Peter Kempf
SASH155


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RE: Austro-Hungarian 18cm Belagerungskanone M.80 and 24cm Böhler heavy trench mortar M.16
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It is funny that in Swedish you use a spelling identical to the French "lavette". The word for "Lafette" is mount or carriage (which in fact may not be the same depending on the weapon ie: fixed coast defense weapons). Wesley 

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Wesley Thomas
Peter Kempf


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Both articles have now been corrected! Thanks for pointing out the errors!


Regarding the LAVETTE and GRENADE terminology problems. From now on I will use proper terminology, but hunting them down on each page is, I'm ashamed to say, above my capacity right now. But every time I have a chance to stomp them out, I will...


Says a repentant austro-swedish...



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/Peter Kempf
28juni14


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Peter, there is nothing wrong with the use of "grenade" when referencing artillery projectiles.  It was a common European term (particularly German speaking countries) during the supposed period of our interest.  In my collection of K.u.K. manuals the term appears frequently. Corrections of  errors/omissions are one thing; sanitation is quite another.



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Peter Kempf


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Ok, good to hear. I'll stick to grenade, then. As an ex-artilleryman myself, one gets kind of blind to proper nomenclature besides the one you use in your own service...

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/Peter Kempf
SASH155


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I hate to be contrarian and I do realize of course that "grenade" is the proper word used in German, Swedish and several other Germanic languages, but I maintain that it is NOT the correct terminology in English when dealing with artillery or mortar projectiles, for the reasons I stated earlier. It looks odd in any treatment, in English only mind you, of artillery. Sorry, but I am sticking to my guns (no pun intended) on this one. If the site was in German, Swedish etc... fine, but it's patently not. If the site was in French, we would be using the word "obus" to refer to shells, not "grenade" (which, however, IS used in French to refer to mortar bombs).    

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Wesley Thomas
28juni14


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Are we to understand that all weapon/vehicle terminology on this site must be Angloised .....to satisfy your personal qualms?  

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SASH155


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I do not see it as a qualm, personal or otherwise, it's just plain bloody wrong, end of story. And no, I am not an anglo-phile nut. I have nothing but respect for foreign languages and in actual fact I prefer the original designations of stuff ie: "Canon de 90mm modèle 1877" or "21cm Mörser M-1910" etc... I speak French as fluently as a native Parisian and I even know a bit of German too. As for common general descriptive terms like shell, grenade, rifle etc... when in Rome do as...do I need to go on? 

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Wesley Thomas
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