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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> References -> Renault FT on Wikipedia: Help Urgently Needed.
Post Info TOPIC: Renault FT on Wikipedia: Help Urgently Needed.
James H


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Renault FT on Wikipedia: Help Urgently Needed.
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For anyone who cares. A gentleman has been running amok on the Wikipedia Renault FT article for some time now, introducing a quite extraordinary amount of disinformation. I managed to refute a good deal of it a while ago, but he has now returned, with renewed vigour and a determination to insert some very serious nonsense into the article. In the past four days he has made about 80 alterations to the text, some of them just tautological language, but some are wildly inaccurate. He is adamant that FTs never had a wooden idler, and that they all had a six-spoked steel idler with wooden or steel panels attached. He cites as proof a photo of the FT in Les Invalides. The gent appears to think that he is the only person in the world who knows this. He is certainly, at present, the only person who believes it. Unfortunately, not only is such evidence inadmissible in the sad, sad world of Wikipedia, but the photo clearly shows seven spokes along with the accompanying steel panels. And the idlers were cast iron, not steel. Plus, of course, there are, as we know, many, many photos showing the wooden idlers on the Renault-made FTs very clearly. There is also lots of other gibberish in there. He seems to feel that the FT was a largely American affair, with some participation by the French.

I am interested to learn that this behaviour is delusional in the psychiatric sense of the word.

I also appreciate that "Idiot Writes Something Untrue On Wikipedia" is hardly news, but so many people turn to it nowadays and quote it at you that allowing It to stay there undoes much of the hard work done by serious authors. I am therefore going to strive to get this clown's alterations "reverted", as they insist on calling it.

Any support much appreciated.

Oh, and he's gone on the French Wiki FT article, telling them they've got it all wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_FT

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Renault_FT&offset=20130409040231&action=history



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"Sometimes things that are not true are included in Wikipedia. While at first glance that may appear like a very great problem for Wikipedia, in reality is it not. In fact, it's a good thing." - Wikipedia.
Ironsides


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Came across this from here http://wealdfoundation.co.uk.web02.eonichost.co.uk/Projects/387-/FT-Idler-wheels

"For years modellers and enthusiasts have puzzled over why some FTs had cast iron idler wheels and others wood. Explanations ranged from a shortage of materials to complex load bearing and ballistic issues.     Like everyone else we sat around debating this.   Now it appears one reason was simple.  Yesterday our archivist translated a small footnote in the official 1917 FT manual.  It simply stated that Berliet produced cast iron wheels and Renault wooden ones.   The discovery still does not answer why initially one company chose wood and another cast iron.  It follows, however, our recent story on Berliet and Renault steering lever castings, and is another possible way of distinguishing between the two manufacturers."

If that is the case then it would meen about 50% would have wood idlers and about 20% cast iron since the material the other manufacturers used is presently unknown....

Cheerssmile

Edit: The Renault Patent US1336832 and GB128655A shows the wooden idler as you might expect but does not say so, it may be possible to work out who did what from serial numbers and photos Im sure the serials used by the different FT manufacturers was posted on the forum....

 



-- Edited by Ironsides on Saturday 13th of April 2013 10:44:55 AM

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CharlieC


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The manufacturers, serials, construction numbers are detailed in the Landships II FT article:

Renault FT

Regards,

Charlie



-- Edited by CharlieC on Saturday 13th of April 2013 12:02:59 PM

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Ironsides


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Hi James I think RP Hunnicut in "Stuart"(1992) mentions the wooden idler of the Renault being replaced with steel on the 6 ton M1917 as one of the modifications " the large wooden idlers on the french model were replaced with all steel idlers on the american model" Im not sure but I think steel idlers may have replaced wooden ones on at least some of the FTs as a later post war mod... 

Cheerssmile



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CharlieC


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Exactly so - the 1931 upgrade of the French FTs replaced the wooden cored idlers with cast steel.

There was a good reason to use wooden idlers rather than cast steel - the lack of production capacity for steel casting in France during WW1.

Girod was about the only manufacturer capable of turning out large steel castings. To cast steel you need an arc furnace since the steel has to be

superheated to well above the melting point (about 1550 C). The amount of superheat depends on the size and complexity of the casting and may need

the steel to be as high as 1900 C, only an arc furnace can get to that temp. Arc furnaces were a new technology in WW1 - there were very few furnaces around.

Regards,

Charlie 



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Ironsides


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Sadly although it shows wooden idlers in the drawings the manual (at least the one I have) doesnt mention this fact saying only "They are guided by guide pulleys 3" (google translate)

Cheerssmile



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CharlieC


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There are images of a couple of surviving FTs in the Shaddock's "Surviving FT" list. Both are in Norway possibly ex-Wehrmacht FTs.

Both have wooden idlers - unless the "fruitloops" contributor to Wikipedia asserts that the original steel idlers were

replaced by wood at some stage.

The wreck is at: Tellevik Kystfort and the restored FT at: Rogaland Krigshistoriske Museum, Stavanger.

There is an image of the FT which is now at the Renault Trucks Défense headquarters, Versailles-Satory when it was

unrestored outside the old Renault factory at Boulogne-Billancourt - the wooden structure of the idlers could be clearly seen

since they had partly rotted away - will go digging for that image.

 



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CharlieC


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That was easy - attached - the FT outside the old Renault factory at Boulogne-Billancourt

Mmm... wood grained steel idler.

Regards,

Charlie



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Ironsides


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Thanks Charliewink



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James H


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Thank you, citizens. I'm aware of much of the above, and I know for a fact that there were both wood and iron idlers. Have seen the Weald Foundation note; elsewhere on their site they describe borrowIng a wooden idler from the Bov FT to make a copy for their restoration. The f***wit in question is now claiming that the photo of an FT on the Saumur website shows six spokes. It, of course, doesn't. The actual situation is perfectly clear to any sensible person. Perhaps we're dealing with a medical condition here. He refuses to accept the evidence of his own eyes. (Earlier he did something similar with the turrets on the FT, citing Steve Zaloga's 2010 book, in which SZ actually contradicts him entirely)

It's dangerously misleading, and it undermines the work done by Francois, Guy, Michel, and all the others who aren't delusional.  It's a simple matter for me to remove his barmy edits, but he's so fixated he'll undoubtedly just reinstate them. It requires a body of opinion to overrule him (one of the many flaws in Wikipedia) so it would help if people who know what they're talking about join in by reversing or removing the errors and by going on the Talk Page and refuting his drivel. Pain in the backside, I know, but otherwise our area of interest is at the mercy of a lone crackpot who can do untold damage.

Thanks for the links and images, btw. I shall utilise them.



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"Sometimes things that are not true are included in Wikipedia. While at first glance that may appear like a very great problem for Wikipedia, in reality is it not. In fact, it's a good thing." - Wikipedia.
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