Landships II

Massimo Foti · Colonel

Unidentified guns in Sofia.

Rectalgia · Legend

Bump. Just found and rescued from obscurity. Sometimes the forum just gets paranoid about links ...

CharlieC · Legend

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The gun's barrel doesn't look right to be a mountain gun. The British mountain guns of this period were "screw guns" - the barrel was in two pieces with a prominent cuff around the joint.

This gun looks fairly conventional with an A and B tube shrunk on reinforcement on the barrel.

It's a pity there isn't an image of the breech, would be able to rule out it being an RML (rifled muzzle loader) gun - the British were still building RML guns long after most other countries had

gone to breech loaders.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 17th of January 2014 05:56:43 AM

Massimo Foti · Colonel

Here is an additional image showing the breech. Hope it may help.

Ironsides · Legend

According to the 2.75 inch manual(plates missing) this gun has a "Hydraulic buffer and running out springs"... it also has a cranked axle.

This one however looks likes its directly mounted on the carriage with no separate cradle, axle looks straight.

So it isnt the 2.75inch a conversion of the 10pdr mountain gun.

Manuals:

2.75-inch�B.L. gun�No plates.

10 pdr jointed Mountain gun�includes plates

The 10pdr handbook shows the gun pre-conversion , the barrel and breech are not the same so Sofia gun is not one of these either.

I think its Likely this is an Export light field gun produced possibly during the 1890s but what type I cant say at this time other then its obviously Armstrong, it would appear the company name tag would indicate a date from 1882-1897 as after this date the name changed to Armstrong Whitworth due to a merger, I think the Gun shield is a later addition though.

The breech may date from around 1887 so this may narrow it down.

Cheers smile

-- Edited by Ironsides on Friday 17th of January 2014 12:07:51 PM

CharlieC · Legend

We could be looking at a 6 Pounder light field gun, the calibre was 2.24 inches (57mm) dated from the 1890s. It's likely to be a field gun because of the

axletree seats.

Marco Pellerini in his bulgarianartillery.it website is very uncertain about the origin of a number of light guns in Bulgaria in the 1890s but thought

there may have been a few Armstrong light field guns.

Regards,

Charlie

�

Massimo Foti · Colonel

I have more questions from Sofia's Museum, let's try to move on on next piece.

This is for sure a Krupp gun, used by Turkish Army. So far I based the id on this page:

http://www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgarian%20Artillery%201/Krupp%20105mm%201905.htm

105 mm Krupp 1905 by Massimo Foti, on Flickr

Massimo Foti · Colonel

Rectalgia wrote:
Bump. Just found and rescued from obscurity. Sometimes the forum just gets paranoid about links ...

I just posted another message with images and a link, and it doesn't shows up...

Do the forum places such posts in quarantine, waiting for the moderators to approve them?

Ironsides · Legend

Massimo, Not usually... its possible your links are causing the problem , if you create a title and highlight it you will get the option to create an active link in the menu(the chainlink symbol below A) click on this and a box opens, add your title and link into the box..

Charlie I also think it may be a 57mm, 6 pounder... Elswick(Armstrong Mitchell) produced a breech not exactly the same as the one on the Armstrong Sophia gun, but very similar.. In that it required two actions to close and lock the breech, by 1894 a single action breech has been developed.

Im thinking 57mm light Field gun built in the early 1890s possible 1890-93....

Regards wink

�

-- Edited by Ironsides on Friday 17th of January 2014 03:56:48 PM

nuyt · Major

The weapon is not discussed in the only book on Bulgarian artillery and it is not mentioned in the Bulgaria sections of Kosar Gebirgsgschuetze.
My guess is that it is a captured weapon.
Kosar mentions a Rumanian 63mm Armstrong 1883 (12 batteries delivered) as well as a Greek 84mm Armstrong.
Elsewhere Kosar mentions a 75mm mountain gun with screwbreech of 1893.

-- Edited by nuyt on Friday 17th of January 2014 03:48:11 PM

Rectalgia · Legend

Massimo Foti wrote:
...
I just posted another message with images and a link, and it doesn't shows up...
Do the forum places such posts in quarantine, waiting for the moderators to approve them?

Yes, the post was sidelined, tagged as "Spam Comment", I've now "approved" that post.� I'm uncertain of the "logic" the forum filter is using but it catches some of us with that tag sometimes (yes, even me).� I can think of many possibilities but almost certainly it is a combination of factors, all innocent in the usual case and usually associated with linking to an external location - that is a web page/image.� A "safe" solution, is not to "link" the URI(s) but that does seem quite an excessive imposition when it/they are perfectly normal flickr resources (and it may involve additional effort to post that way - depending on your browser and its settings and on whether it is used in the "Visual" or the "HTML" forum edit modes - and certainly will involve additional effort for people in following them).

Phil or I will approve such hung-up posts as and when we come across them, but unfortunately we do not have the tools or access to be specifically alerted to them when they are posted but quarantined, as, unfortunately, has been the case with your initial post and the next one with links.� Maybe one of the factors is when your internet address (IP address) changes from one post to the next - as mine tends to do also - but most of us wouldn't have a clue what our address might be, let alone have any control over changes to it.

Oh well ... most times it is not a great problem.

Massimo Foti · Colonel

Thanks for the explanations. I'll try to post the images/links using a different syntax and see if I can work around the problem

Ironsides · Legend

I should'nt bother I just did all the right things and was locked in Spamville for my trouble...�

�

Cheers confuse

�

CharlieC · Legend

�

Can we go back to the 10cm Belagerungskanone (Fortress gun) now please?

This gun is in Kosar's "Artillerie im 20 Jahrhundert" - Band 2, P.68 - noted as 3 x 6-gun batteries built for Turkey - ordered 1905 delivered in 1908.

The Sofia gun looks like a derivative of the K04 Kanone - ignoring the muzzle brake as a later addition. The vertical K04 breech has been changed to a

horizontal sliding breech - the breech mechanism is typical early Krupp - screw actuation like the 75mm M03 gun.

The Osmanli script on the breech ring - which just repeats the manufacturer's name - means the gun was processed through the Imperial Arsenal in

Istanbul. There will be a serial no., year in script on the barrel or top of the breech. The barrel weight will also be inscribed - possibly at the bottom of the

breech ring. There's an article on decoding Ottoman gun markings in Landships II.

Regards,

Charlie

Massimo Foti · Colonel

Here is another quiz, it's a Krupp field gun. On bulgarianartillery.it I can see 3 different candidates:

Krupp 87mm field gun M. 1873

Krupp 87mm field gun M. 1880

Krupp 87mm field gun M. 1885

Unidentified Krupp field gun by Massimo Foti, on Flickr

�

Unidentified Krupp field gun by Massimo Foti, on Flickr

�

I saw a similar gun in Belgrade:

90 mm Krupp 1897 by Massimo Foti, on Flickr

�

nuyt · Major

My message on the Armstrong also disappeared and now reappeared.
Agree with Charlie on the 10,5 cm.
Belagerungskanone literally means Siege gun.
Dutch army acquired two similar guns before WW1, still in service in 1940, after which they received a German WW2 gun code.
Adding muzzle brakes appears to be a Bulgarian hobby. Sofia also holds a rare Krupp 10,5 cm 1917 light howitzer with muzzle brake. This weapon is often confused with the Rheinmetall lFH16.

Massimo Foti · Colonel

nuyt wrote:
Adding muzzle brakes appears to be a Bulgarian hobby. Sofia also holds a rare Krupp 10,5 cm 1917 light howitzer with muzzle brake. This weapon is often confused with the Rheinmetall lFH16.

�I think I have pictures of that, but I haven't posted on Flickr yet

nuyt · Major

Massimo, mille grazie. Sofia was always on my list of visits, but enver made it. It must be a trove of rare artillery pieces. Keep those pics coming please!
Nuyt

CharlieC · Legend

Krupp didn't do very much business with the 10cm export guns - so far my count is:

18 to Turkey, captured at Odrion in 1913, some subsequently used by the Bulgarian Army

2 to Holland - served through until WW2. Holland didn't acquire any more 105mm guns until the late 20s.

2 to Russia - tested but no production order

50 to Japan - first guns of the 10cm Type 38 gun, the Type 38 was considerably different from the original Model 1905 Krupp gun

- the Japanese went on to build an unknown number of Type 38s for their own use as well as 120 for a Russian order delivered 1916-17(?).

Regards,

Charlie

Massimo Foti · Colonel

nuyt wrote:
Massimo, mille grazie. Sofia was always on my list of visits, but enver made it. It must be a trove of rare artillery pieces. Keep those pics coming please!
Nuyt

�Along the years I have been in Sofia, Bucharest and Belgrade. They all have great collections of artillery pieces from the 1880-1950 period. The diversity is amazing, guns from all over the world, plenty of captured weapons...

I had some difficult trying to identify them all, and I still have doubts about some pieces from Bucharest and Belgrade. Belgrade's Museum does quite a poor job with their info panels, Bucharest is better, Sofia is pretty good, but there is a whole area were a large amount of unidentified guns are stored, in fact that's were the pictures in this thread come from.

I'll post links to my Flickr account (on a separated messages, since it will be quarantined for sure!), with pictures from Bucharest, Belgrade and Sofia, I would love to have people review the identifications, since I am not yet sure about many of them. In case is needed, I have additional shots not available online.

�

Massimo Foti · Colonel

Here are the links to my images:

Bucharest:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/massimofoti/sets/72157624595717860/

Belgrade:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/massimofoti/sets/72157629743227210/

Sofia is still a work in progress, plenty of pictures are yet to come:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/massimofoti/sets/72157636746382615/

Massimo Foti · Colonel

A test embedding images in a different way to see if the forum software will forgive me this time

This one "Brazilian" 75 mm Krupp.

nuyt · Major

Massimo Foti wrote:
Here are the links to my images:
Sofia is still a work in progress, plenty of pictures are yet to come:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/massimofoti/sets/72157636746382615/

�Fantastic, they have a couple of modified 75mm Krupp and possibly Schneiders on the local Stanchev and Dobrev boxtrail carriage!

Massimo Foti · Colonel

nuyt wrote:
�Fantastic, they have a couple of modified 75mm Krupp and possibly Schneiders on the local Stanchev and Dobrev boxtrail carriage!

If you have additional details or corrections, please post them. I am not an artillery expert and would love to collect additional information

Massimo Foti · Colonel

I think we already gave this a try, but failed to properly identify it. It's a 75 mm Krupp, with 1916 markings.

nuyt · Major

7,7cm Kanone 16 with Bulgarian shield and no crew seats?

Massimo Foti · Colonel

nuyt wrote:
7,7cm Kanone 16 with Bulgarian shield and no crew seats?

�It could be, but it's quite a bit of guesswork without having some additional documentation...

nuyt · Major

Massimo, guessing is exactly what I'm doing, for lack of adequate documentation :)

Massimo Foti · Colonel

There is nothing wrong in guessing, especially since so far we failed to figure out anything more

nuyt · Major

The carriage appears to be a bit different from the original FK16, perhaps this is a Stanchev and Dobrev version?
There is another picture in your collection which I think shows the Bulgarian Krupp 75mm with such a carriage.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/massimofoti/11901609233/in/set-72157636746382615

-- Edited by nuyt on Friday 14th of February 2014 05:44:02 PM

Massimo Foti · Colonel

This is a 105 mm Krupp:

�

My understanding this is an upgraded version of a gun visible in Belgrade:

I would love to get additional info

Massimo

CharlieC · Legend

�

The gun at Belgrade looks like a 12cm Krupp M05 - this was an export only howitzer. A number of countries bought the 12cm before WW1 including Holland.

The 12cm design was reused as the 122mm M09 howitzer sold to Russia.�

Regards,

Charlie

Massimo Foti · Colonel

So far I identified the one in Belgrade as a 10.5 cm Feldhaubitze M.12
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.5_cm_Feldhaubitze_M.12

Massimo

CharlieC · Legend

If it is a 10cm howitzer M12/16 then according to Kosar it was sold to Rumania and Bulgaria before WW1.

The one at Sofia could be a Krupp M1916 with a muzzle brake. The German Army selected the Rheinmetall lFH16

for production but there was a Krupp design with an L/20 barrel.

From the survey of Rumanian artillery - the Rumanian Army bought 120 M12 howitzers before WW1 and they

served throughout the war - their performance was noted as "flawless". The attached is a Rumanian 10cm M12

firing at the Battle of Casin Valley, 1917.

Regards,

Charlie

�

Massimo Foti · Colonel

At this point I am quite convinced about Belgrade's gun identity. Not sure yet about the one in Sofia.

It's not a 105 mm Krupp M1916, there are plenty on display in Sofia. Here you can see one:

Once again, thanks for the feedback.

Massimo

-- Edited by Massimo Foti on Thursday 13th of March 2014 09:07:04 AM

Massimo Foti · Colonel

I am adding a picture of a Swiss 12 cm 1912. Most Swiss guns were upgraded just before WW II, with new wheels and muzzle-brakes. This is one of the few still visible in their original configuration:

CharlieC · Legend

The Swiss 12cm is interesting as well as being very rare.

The 10cm Krupp lFH 1916 is also a rare gun (outside Bulgaria) - however, there is a surviving 10cm lFH.kp M16 in the US.

Ralph Lovett has images of it on his website. Comparing the captured 10cm lFH.kp M16 with the Bulgarian gun is instructive -

looks very similar except for the Bulgarian modifications.

The 10cm at Sofia with the long barrel and muzzle brake looks like one of the Krupp M1916s with a much longer barrel fitted

- perhaps one of the HiH/Rheinmetal upgrades for the lFH16?

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 13th of March 2014 02:09:50 PM

Massimo Foti · Colonel

The Swiss 12cm is quite familiar to me, but I see like that's not the case for people outside Switzerland

If people would like, I can post some pictures on a dedicated thread, it had a long service in the Swiss Army and was upgraded along the years. I have a good selection of pictures from Swiss museums, showing different configurations. I could do the same for the rarer 15 cm and for the 7.5 cm who served in Switzerland for around half a century. Something along the lines of the thread I posted on Swiss mountain artillery.

Massimo

CharlieC · Legend

�

The 12cms would be interesting - it was an "orphan" calibre by WW1 - the German Army didn't want it because their tests had shown the 15cm projectile was much more efficient.

The Russians were major users of this calibre with their 122mm howitzers. Krupp, of course, built whatever calibre guns the customer wanted.

The 7.5cm guns are a long running project I've been tinkering away at for ages - more information on the Swiss 7.5cms would be good. Are there any survivors of the 1922?

carriage modification - Israel bought these from Switzerland in 1948 during the war of Independence.�

It's strange that Switzerland bought the 15cm M17 L/14 howitzer when the German factories were building the sFH 13 lg L/17 howitzer

Regards,

Charlie

�

-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 13th of March 2014 02:26:10 PM

Massimo Foti · Colonel

I'll cover the Swiss 12 cm howitzers in a dedicated thread.
Sure I have pictures of any kind of Swiss 7.5 cm, including the 1922 version and much more! I agree the sale to Israel is an especially fascinating story.
At one point I could post also about the Italian 7.5 cm from Krupp, plus an attempt at listing all the different variations I have seen in Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia.
That's already make for 3 different threads and dozens of pictures

As far as I know the Swiss 15 cm howitzers were pretty much sFH 13s, but I may be wrong. Anyway, let's make a separated thread for that and try to stick to Sofia's Museum for the time being

Massimo