Landships II

MK1 Nut · Hero

German trophy gun. But what is it?

mtaylor · Sergeant

Please see attached image. �This gun is an enigma. I suspect it may be the only survivor. Nothing like it on passioncompassion. Bore is 10cm approx (could be 10.5). Barrel is 3.65m (=35 calibre?). No recoil system. WW1 land carriage. No visible inscriptions on breech or barrel (might be rusted over?) except three sets of serials on top of barrel - 5125 and 6965�(both struck through) and 15245. Vertical sliding breech. Might be an ancestor of 10cm K04? Or a naval gun on land carriage. Any views most welcome.

�

Mike

�

CharlieC · Legend

�

It's a pity there isn't a side view of the gun. I've never seen anything like that but Kosar's "Artillerie im 20 Jahrhundert" has a

10cm Kanone mit Federsporn M02 (p.66). This has some similarities with your gun. The Federsporn system seems to have been a long sprung recoil

absorber laid out on the ground attached to the front of the gun. The barrel looks fairly similar to the 10cm K04 but that L/30 barrel is bit shorter than

the L/35 you quoted.

Regards,

Charlie�

mtaylor · Sergeant

Charlie - thanks for that. The trail is rather like a lighter version of the 15cm FK iR and there was nothing like a recoil cylinder beneath it (or the fixing for one). I attach another pic plus an IWM pic of a piece no longer in their collection. �There are some similarities - the single central brake handle, some trail detail, the wheel shape but 'my' one has no shield of course.

�

Mike

CharlieC · Legend

Another candidate - Kosar has another gun he refers to as "Feldkanone 105mm M97 i.R" but no image of it. The text says that 30 10cm fortress guns were put on wheeled

carriages at the start of WW1. Your observation that it looked like a scaled 15cm i.R carriage would seem to be right. The barrel was L/35, the emplaced weight 4180 kg and the

max. range 13.1 km. If it really is this gun it's very rare given the number built.

Where is this gun?

You should report it on Bernard Plumier's blog -�http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com/ - for inclusion in the Passion Compassion database.

Regards,

Charlie

CharlieC · Legend

�

Franz Kosar "Artillerie im 20. Jahrhundert" Bernard & Graefe Verlag, Bonn, 2004.

Send me a PM with an email address - I can scan the page from the book.

The gun weighed a bit over 4 tons - no way would it jump when fired - just roll up the recoil ramps.�

I wonder if the guns presented to Blairgowrie and Crieff were captured by unit(s) with associations with the area - it might

get you a place/time of capture via unit diaries.

Regards,

Charlie

-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 11th of November 2013 01:03:57 PM

-- Edited by CharlieC on Monday 11th of November 2013 01:07:47 PM

mtaylor · Sergeant

Charlie / Mk1 - thanks both for the helpful comments.

Charlie - I think you have identified a poss candidate - could I have the full reference for Kosar?

Mk 1 - thanks for the link to the axis forum - some interesting detail of Krupp carriages. �This gun certainly has no trace of a traverse mechanism and the trunnions are fixed to the carriage which must have bucked when it was fired! The attached front view shows two brackets on the front cross piece of the carriage (- might have held a shield?), the brake action to the inner front rim of the wheels and a 'bracket' structure hanging down just behind the axle - don't know what that is!

The gun was given to the town of Blairgowrie, Perths in 1920. It escaped the scrapping craze and WW2. It's not accessible to the public so I'm restricted as to defining it's location - but I hope that will change in the next few months! Bear with me.

It looks as if a very similar gun (which does not survive!) was presented to the town of Crieff, Perthshire - see attached postcard although not clear.

Thanks again

�

Mike

mtaylor · Sergeant

Charlie - many thanks for the extract. I have betrayed my ignorance of the practicalities of firing big guns! Both the Blairgowrie and Crieff guns were allocated by the War Office and do not seem to have any relation to the local units - at least the local newspapers didn't puck up on any association. But as you probably know the records relating to trophy guns in Britain seem non-existent compared with Australia and Canada. I live in hope of turning something up.

Mike

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Mike,

Charlie hit the nail on the head. This is indeed the 10cm Schnelladekanone L/35 in Radlafette, based on the barrel of the 10cm Kanone 97 in Schirmlafette. These barrels were first placed in the 15cm gun carriage. This turned out not to work, so 30 barrels were placed in an Behelfslafette (improvised or make-do carriage), and that is what you have found. I may add, an astonishing find! I have been studying German artillery for over 20 years now and I have never, ever, seen a picture of this gun. Any further pictures of this gun would be greatly appreciated.

With kind regards,

-Arie.

CharlieC · Legend

�

Found some images of the 10cm Kanone in Schirmlafette - these were of a fortress gun in the Vosges were being sold on the German eBay.

The vertical sliding breech is clearly visible.

Regards,

Charlie

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Charlie,

Yep, that is the one. Here you can find some more pictures.

http://www.maquetland.com/article-phototheque/777-tourelle-10cm-panzerturm-in-schirmlaffette-draguig

With kind regards,

-Arie.

mtaylor · Sergeant

Arie - many thanks for this. Could you tell me where the information about the use of the 15cm land carriage and the�Behelfslafette comes from? Another image attached. Delighted to make contact.

Mike

mtaylor · Sergeant

Charlie - thanks for the album pics. I would never have picked up on them. �Great view. The web pages for the Fort de Mustig have pics of the restored fort with guns in turrets. One attached.

Mike

Arie Dijkhuis · General

Hi Mike,

Sorry, I should have quoted my source. It is 'Das Ger�t der Schwere Artillerie' by Schirmer, page 236, published in 1937.

I am not sure which 15cm gun carriage was meant, but I think it was the 15cm Ringkanone of 1872.

Thanks for the picture! From this you can clearly see how the brake was attached to the carriage. You can also see it is quite a big gun.

I have been working on scale drawings of the very similar 10cm Kanone L/35 iR der Marine, but I got stuck on the elevation drum. Your gun shows it on the side of the carriage, but I believe the gun I am drawing has it underneath the carriage (it is a very bad picture I am working from). These guns were first placed in the old 12cm gun carriage, which also did not work. Both the gun you have and the one I am drawing�were then placed in a�very similar Behelfslafette. This gun has a horizontal sliding breach, and the barrel weighs 1270 kg. Your gun tube has a falling breach block and weighs 1500 kg.

I also thought, as the fortress gun had a short recoil system, this would also have been incorporated in the gun you have, but it turnes out not to be.

With kind regards,

-Arie.

mtaylor · Sergeant

Arie - thank you very much for the information. Pics of elevating gear attached.

Mike

Ralph Lovett · General

Mike

The reference Entwicklung des Artilleriematerials im Weltkrieg published by the Fried. Krupp company shows this gun.� It is the 10,5cm Schnelladekanone L/35 Raederlafette (10cm Kanone 97), as Charlie posted earlier.� I have attached the images from this reference.

I hope this helps.

R/

Ralph Lovett

�

-- Edited by Ralph Lovett on Thursday 28th of November 2013 03:56:14 AM

mtaylor · Sergeant

Ralph - many thanks for the information and the photos. The carriage is a dead ringer for the gun here in Scotland but I note the example illustrated has the horizontal sliding breech not the vertical one that 'my' example has. �The elevating gearing is also on the top of the carriage in the photo but on the side of the carriage in 'mine' - presumably to allow for the different tube. �Would it have the same designation?

Very best wishes

�

Mike

�

Ralph Lovett · General

Mike

You are right, I missed the detail about the vertical breech mechanism verses the horizontal one.� In this case, I think it is a�gun with a different designation from the 10,5cm Schnelladekanone L/35 Raederlafette (10cm Kanone 97) pictured in the Krupp reference.�

R/

Ralph

�

mtaylor · Sergeant

Ralph - thanks. If not the 10cm �Kanone 97 does anyone have any other suggestions? �I am now assuming that (except for the examples still emplaced in the German border fortresses) this example on a land carriage is unique?

CharlieC · Legend

�

Look at the captions on Ralph's images - they seem to be referring to two different guns:

Images 140, 141 - "10.5cm Schnelladekanone L/35 in R�derlafette (10cm Kanone 97)"

Image 142 - "10.5cm Kanone L/35 in R�derlafette (s. 10cm Kanone)

The breech isn't visible in Images 140,141 so it isn't possible to tell whether it's a vertical sliding breech but from the nomenclature

this gun is different from that in Image 142. (The Germans were very precise in their nomenclature - if it's a different name you

can guarantee it's a different piece of equipment). �The key term here is the word "Schnellade" which means "fast loading" which

describes the action of a vertical breech compared to a horizontal sliding breech of this vintage. Horizontal breeches at this time

(1897) were two action - unlock and slide.

I'm still happy with the identification as a 10cm Kanone 97 in R�derlafette - the example in Scotland seems to be the only survivor.

Regards,

Charlie�

-- Edited by CharlieC on Friday 6th of December 2013 12:27:35 PM

arjen · Corporal

Hi Ralph,

does your reference "Entwicklung des Artilleriematerials im Weltkrieg" has any text or specifications on these guns?
If so, would it be possible to post it?
Maybe there's clue...
On page 237 of Schirmer "das Ger�t..." they say that the 10,5 cm K97 has a "Fallblockverschluss" and the schwere 10,5 Kanone a "Rundkeilverschluss".

Regards Arjen

Ralph Lovett · General

Sorry it took me a little time to get back to this.� Yes, there is a text section on the 10cm Schnelladekanone L/35.� I have attached page 108 from Entwicklung des Artilleriematerials im Weltkriege.

I hope this helps.

�

R/

Ralph Lovett

�

mtaylor · Sergeant

Ralph - thanks for posting to original source.

My German is almost non-existent. I�could type out the relevant section and run it through a translation programme but I know it wouldn't be able to cope with the technical terms. �Could I prevail on a kind soul out there to translate the Schnelladekanonen L/35 section. It would be much appreciated.

�

Mike

arjen · Corporal

Hi Ralph,

thank you for the copy.
Looks like I can add another book to the wish list... ;)

Mike,

if time allows and nobody beats me to it, I will try to translate it this week.

Regards Arjen

mtaylor · Sergeant

Hello Arjen - no-one's beaten you to it yet!!� aww

�

Mike

CharlieC · Legend

�

The attached turned up on the AxisHistory forum - it looks like it was an eBay image for sale. Not entirely sure it's�

a 10cm Schnelladekanone L/35 in Radlafette since the breech seems to be covered but the carriage seems right.

Regards,

Charlie

mtaylor · Sergeant

Charlie - that's fantastic! Thanks for pointing me towards the image. Now I know what the bracket under the axle was for. �I found another image in the same place (i'll try and acq them) which shows how they dealt with the lack of recoil dampers. I think you can also make out the top edge of a vertical sliding breech. Brilliant!!

�

Mike