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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Individual weapons & tactics -> More machine guns: MG15nA and Fedorov
Post Info TOPIC: More machine guns: MG15nA and Fedorov
Martin


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More machine guns: MG15nA and Fedorov
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Hi!

I just read the thread about the Madsen machine gun, which is a really interesting weapon.

I thought I would start a discussion about two other very interesting weapons from the WW1 era - the German Bergmann MG15nA machine gun and the Russian Fedorov Assault Rifle from the early 1910's (!!).

I dont know how much you know about this interesting weapons, but It would be nice to hear your thoughts.

The MG15nA was a machine gun designed for airplanes, but apparently had some problem with its mechanism and jamming when doing advanced manouvers with the plane. It got modified for infantry use instead and was a relatively light machine gun, especially compared to the MG08/15.

From what I've read it was used by the Germans on the Italian front, but I wonder if it also saw any action on the Western Front?

Here's a snippet on the Fedorov from the Modern Firearms-page http://world.guns.ru/

"The history of the concept of the assault rifle started in the early 1910's, when the famous Russian armorer, col. Fedorov designed a small-bore selective-fire rifle with detachable box magazine. Initially, Fedorow designed a brand new small-caliber 6.5mm cartridge for his rifle, but, due to WW1, switched to the Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka load, which was less powerful than the Russian 7.62x54R and available in quantity. This rifle was aquired by the Russian army in small numbers in 1916 and served (in very limited quantities though) with the Russian and Soviet (Red) Army up to 1925. While the design of the selective-fire rifle was not unique for that time, the concept of the "lightened" cartridge, more suitable for full-auto fire, was new. Also, col.Fedorov invented the idea of infantry weapons families (assault rifle, light machinegun, medium machinegun, vehicle and/or aircraft mounted MGs) based on the same actions and receivers."

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Centurion


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I know more about the Bergman as an air weapon than I do about its use by the infantry. The story is a little more complex than you suggest. There were two light machine gun developments selected by the German High Command. Rheinmetal were to produce an infantry weapon and Bergman an airborne gun. As it happened there was nothing wrong with the Bergman but the Rheinmetal gun was a failure and so the Bergman was selected as an infantry and an aircraft weapon. However although an effective weapon it was not as good as the air cooled version of the 08 Parabellum. However as synchronisation gear became available for the Parabellum it could be used both as a fixed gun for the pilot and as a free gun for the observer. Demand was initially too high for the Parabellum and the Bergman was used in in many C class aircraft as an observers gun. However as demand for the Bergman as an infantry weapon rose and production of the better Parabellum increased the Bergman was used less and less in aircraft and became purely an infantry weapon.

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Martin


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Thanks for the answer :)

I have the book "Machine Guns of Two World Wars" that has some info about the MG15nA, but I'm at work now so I tried to just write what I could remember. Of course the history is more complex then that, though :)

I've read that one drawback with the MG15nA in infantry use was that its relatively high bipod made it tricky to use in a prone position.

I don't know how much validity there is in that, though. Apparently it was also equipped with different types if bipods or tripods.

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Martin


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Centurion wrote:
I know more about the Bergman as an air weapon than I do about its use by the infantry. The story is a little more complex than you suggest. There were two light machine gun developments selected by the German High Command. Rheinmetal were to produce an infantry weapon and Bergman an airborne gun. As it happened there was nothing wrong with the Bergman but the Rheinmetal gun was a failure and so the Bergman was selected as an infantry and an aircraft weapon. However although an effective weapon it was not as good as the air cooled version of the 08 Parabellum. However as synchronisation gear became available for the Parabellum it could be used both as a fixed gun for the pilot and as a free gun for the observer. Demand was initially too high for the Parabellum and the Bergman was used in in many C class aircraft as an observers gun. However as demand for the Bergman as an infantry weapon rose and production of the better Parabellum increased the Bergman was used less and less in aircraft and became purely an infantry weapon.


This is what I was referring to. A quote from "Machine-Guns of Two World Wars", by John Walter, Greenhill Military Manuals:

L. MG. 15. This was the Bergmann design adopted to provide an aircraft gun suitable for fixed forward firing installations. Lighter and much more compact than the Maxims, desirable characteristics in an aircraft gun, the Bergmann seemed ideal - until pilots began to report that it jammed too frequently to be trusted in combat. The problem was soon traced to the spring assisted return stroke of the feed mechanism, which malfunctioned if the aircraft was turning sharply to the left. No time could be spared to rectify the design fault, and the Bergmanns where withdrawn from air service. Many were re-issued as ground guns, with rudimentary shoulder pads attached to the back plate, a pistol-grip/trigger assembly beneath the receiver and crude sights. A protective sheet-steel guard could be pivoted down to cover the feed aperture, and the slotted sheet-steel barrel jacket had a carrying handle. The guns were issued in jonjunction with a miniscule tripod. M1915 Bergmanns were made in two patterns - old ('a.A', alter Art) and new ('n.A', neue Art), differing in the action. The former fired from an open bolt, but accuracy had proved to be poor; the latter, therefore, reverted to closed-bolt operation. Both fed from the right. They were handier in the light role than the cumbersome MG. 08/15, but the design of the butt and the tripod prevented firing from the prone position.

So that's from where I got the info about it jamming when the plane made advanced manouvers and the problem with using it as a ground weapon in prone position.

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Centurion


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Martin


I think that the two accounts are compatible. They probably used the Bergman out of necessity (despite the jamming problem) whilst there was a Parabellum  shortage but once this latter issue was solved they would release them for ground work wherethey were already in use.



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Martin


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Centurion wrote:

I think that the two accounts are compatible.


Definitely. Just thought you would be interested in that account :)

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