Landships II

Helen,
I have superimposed that diagram over your fine drawing. I've used the positions of the rear of the horns to reference. The angles are the same (if you fiddle with the juxtaposition of the drawings they tie in nicely). However, the superimposed drawing rather suggests that the tail steering unit is slightly longer than your drawing. I'll go and do some work on it momentarily.

See attachment.

So you can make your own minds up here is a composite with the MB offerings included.  Things to note - forward end of tail unit is about 1mm too narrow, the place where the X beam joins the axle is too close (as previously discussed).  However, it makes my proposed modification a little easier as 'we' have to find 2mm extra length, most of which will be in the correct spacing of X beam and axle.

TCT thanks, I would be most interest. I have a photo showing, very clearly, the camouflage on the side of the tank but the roof appears a single colour.

Here's a photo of 534 and 546 bogged down in Delville Wood on 15/9/16.

The steering tail is complete and I have started on the second version. Rather than follow the 90% scratch build formula I am following my suggested build as per the 'Improving the MB tanks steering tail'. Hopefully I can create almost as convincing a unit. I have made the rear axle, just need the reinforcements and ends and I am planning on knocking out some 'spares' if anyone is interested. So here, then, is the tail unit of the 'female' tank.

Hi Helen,
Initially I was inclined to disagree with your assessment of the position of the L angle iron cross beam. However, further study of available photos indicates that you are correct that the angle iron is riveted on top of the triangular bracing plates. However, I contend that the large lightening hole of those bracing plates is 'just' clear of the angle iron and would appear circular if viewed from above. We will not be able to confirm one way or the other until Tank Museum allows you to crawl all over it - something that seems unlikely for the foreseeable future. Perhaps a photo will turn up from pre 'diorama' days or even from when the tail was attached to the Mk2.

-- Edited by TeeELL on Friday 7th of February 2014 12:18:37 PM

Just to prove the point Helen made about the lip that runs around the track guide and to show Airfix could do it 50 years ago:

Sorry, sorry, sorry!!   But we are getting facts together are we not?  We won't need access to the real thing at this rate.  Those are exactly the sorts of photos that help with gaining the knowledge.  So question is, do we have any idea what the longitudinal bar with the loop under the rear axle does, in addition is there an awareness of how the steering mechanism operated - perhaps not appropriate for 1:72 but the 1:35 plus scale merchants might wish to know ( if and when such a model appears).

Wheel hubs err yes, they are missing because I haven't yet finished tidying up the wheels. The MB plastic is a bit strange and cleaning it up is a little challenging.

 

Helen, you will delighted to know that there will be no more posts from me from Tuesday for at least 2 weeks.  Off to Cuba!

-- Edited by TeeELL on Friday 7th of February 2014 04:51:16 PM

TeeELL wrote:

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So question is, do we have any idea what the longitudinal bar with the loop under the rear axle does, in addition is there an awareness of how the steering mechanism operated - perhaps not appropriate for 1:72 but the 1:35 plus scale merchants might wish to know ( if and when such a model appears).

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 I think the answer to your two questions is one and the same. I've wondered on occasion how the steering worked, and it seems quite possible that the long bar with the loop at the end is a tiller, in the same style as a boat tiller: move the front end of the bar to the left and it will pivot on the chunky pin running through the loop at the other end, with the steering track arms being pushed to the left, which would turn the wheels to steer to the right (and vice versa).

At first it seems a bit crude, but when you think about it, the length of the bar is about 3-4 times the length from the pivot (at the loop) to the steering track arms, and this will provide an essential mechanical advantage (leverage) to lessen the force required for steering.

At the driver's end, steering was effected by a steering wheel, which moved a cable in similar manner to a ship's wheel (before the modern days of hydraulic telemotors), so somehow I suggest that there should be some pulleys (I think one is visible in photos of the Bovi Mk 1) to guide the twin cables that emerge from the rear bulkhead, so that one cable can pull the tiller to the right, and one to the left.

Make sense?

Yep TC has it right. 

The six bolts on the front slope below the cab, hold the steering wheel. From the wheel runs two cables that go back throughout the tank, exiting through tubes in the rear bulkhead.

The tubes run down either side of the inside of the rear horns. The tubes turn 90% to point the cables at the two pulley wheels attached to the long tiller arm. The cables go around the pulleys and tie off to the frame.

The long tiller arm is attached by a bolt through the axle beam, which is the pivot point. Off the tiller pivot two short arms to the wheel hubs which turn the wheels.

Phew!

I think I will do a drawing, it's got to be easier. :)

 

TeeELL wrote:

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Just to prove the point Helen made about the lip that runs around the track guide and to show Airfix could do it 50 years ago:

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 Even the much maligned Emhar 1/72 Mk.IV had the lip running around the track frame, a strip of 10 thou evergreen should do the trick.

Strewth, I am a Major. The equivalent rank I held in the RAF. Cool!

-- Edited by TeeELL on Friday 7th of February 2014 10:36:35 PM

As far as I know it was a one off adaptation for a known bullet splash problem. From MKIIs onwards all front flaps had protective rims around them. It would be nice to know if it was crew inspired or an designers stopgap measure.

Helen x

 

The picture is of HMLS " Oh I SAY ! ".  Comparison footage found at  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7K485WdBTo

It is the Female at the start of the film and shows many identical features and paint scheme. Thanks to Philthydirtyanimal for the footage.

Paul

-- Edited by Paul Bonnett on Monday 3rd of March 2014 01:44:00 AM

The photo was described as "Unknown MkI Female ", and in the film footage you can see "Oh I Say" quite clearly on the front side. The shape, size, position of the camouflage are, I believe, identical although in the still its somewhat dirtier !. The materiel along the top, front edge, of the drivers cab seems identical to although I cannot decide what this may be ? The light hitting the front of the tank maybe somewhat different but there is a protrusion around the two hatches showing up in the clip that is in the same place as those in the still. Just some of my observations
Paul
ps Hope you had a great hol ! TeeELL

Going by the comparison to the front 'scopes and its apparent position I would agree that it looks like the rear periscope.
Paul

The impression I have of the shield is that it is asymmetric: the right side is closer to a right-angle bend than the left, which is wider than 90 degrees; this is because the rear door is too wide to allow a symmetrical shield.

PS - hope you enjoyed your holiday!

Helen,
Take a close look at your photo in the previous post and compare it with the one you posted a while back (and is included in my post immediately prior to yours). In the 'Western front' (WF) photo the shield seems to me, to be attached on the left side very close to the louvre but the 'Sir Archibald' version is closer to the line of vertical rivets. What do you think?  Further more, the position where the additional tail top support bracket might have been on 'Sir Archibald' is in a different position - it appears to be closer to the right hand edge, if indeed, it is where the bracket might have been.  I really must get out more!!!  The more the photos are studied the greater the conundrums revealed.

Further study, albeit only slightly more than cursory, is causing me to conclude that the shield on 'Sir Archibald' is not the same design of shield at all!!!  The aforementioned support bracket on the rear of the WF shield is positioned approx in line with the 3rd and 5th rivets down but the possible 'witness' position of that bracket on Sir A is in a different, higher, position.

From the modelling perspective the MB shield really needs more work doing to it than I carried out, but hind sight is a wonderful thing.  I didn't get round to spraying the undercoat this evening as 'Death in Paradise' beckoned, so that will be tomorrow's task.

i wonder if it would be the act of a mad man to make a model of a Mk1 with the studs for the 'spaced armour', would it be possible to find enough information to be able to place representations of the studs in the correct positions over the whole tank?

-- Edited by TeeELL on Wednesday 5th of March 2014 05:16:26 AM

-- Edited by TeeELL on Wednesday 5th of March 2014 05:20:53 AM

-- Edited by TeeELL on Wednesday 5th of March 2014 05:24:48 AM

-- Edited by TeeELL on Wednesday 5th of March 2014 05:31:33 AM

I have done some work on the Grenade canopy (see separate thread) and the steering tail of my 'Male' tank (again see separate thread). All of that was simply putting off the moment when I dug out the spray booth and fired up the Paasche airbrush, finally I couldn't think of any more excuses so I dug out a pot of 'Sea grey medium' and primed the beast. I figure that grey might well have been one of the camouflage colours so I will mark out the pattern of 'OH, I SAY !!!' and probably brush finish the remaining colours with acrylics. I am going to cheat a little with the pattern to ensure I have a single colour where the HMLS 'NAME' and A17 go to make creating and printing the decals easier.

So, this MB 'Female' Mk1 tank is, to all intents, complete. It is a sound kit but requires attention to the order of construction to sort out the distortions in the 2 major body mouldings. This thread has covered areas where the kit is slightly faulty (and ironically, where the Airfix offering has achieved the right results) and has opened up a few interesting lines of investigation. Neither this nor the Airfix kit has correctly modelled the tail unit both companies making similar errors but with a little perseverance the short comings can be overcome - heck, model a tank without the steering tail!!

I will add to this thread anything from making the 'Male' tank that is relevant.

I would like to thank each and everyone of you who has contributed knowledge, photos and discussion to help this thread along and I further hope that, in conjunction with the reference kit review, the information presented will encourage you modellers to get creative with these MB offerings. Whilst I remember - don't forget to tell your local model shop about these models, mine was most certainly unaware. The more kits MB shift the more likely we are to see more variations from them.