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Landships II -> Landships WW1 Forum -> Tanks -> Bolt Holes in Rails
Post Info TOPIC: Bolt Holes in Rails
Tonys


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Bolt Holes in Rails
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Found these bolt holes on the Brussels Mk. IV.  Initially thought that they might have been for the additional rail put on the top towers, but they are too far back - any ideas?

Tony



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Gwyn Evans


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Tony
Last March I stood at the side of this tank wondering exactly the same thing....
Gwyn



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Uyraell


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Having thought upon the image, it seems possible that the holes are simply present to relieve the ongoing stress of the individual unditching rails themselves. A relative of mine spent his career in a heavy engineering fabrication works, and described to me that such a technique is very common when seeking to extend the service life of a given (shaped) component. It may be that the image here represents just such a case. Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

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"Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense" : "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks" Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348. "Wan Schon is besser schon" "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well" Attributed to Frederich Barbarossa, Rex Germania, AD1123 to 1190.
TinCanTadpole


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There is one photo on Landships II that shows similar holes, except that there is only one hole per side on the rear section of rail behind the stowage box (the section over the box has three holes per side, like Lodestar III):




www.landships.info/landships/tank_articles/images/Mark_IV_16.jpg


The suggestion about drilling holes to relieve stresses is interesting, but the holes in the picture above look too close to the lower edge of the rails to do that - if anything, one might expect that particular example to have had increased stresses in the lower edge of the rails.

My inkling is that the holes were there to fasten something - but it looks like only some tanks had this feature, so who knows.

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Uyraell


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RE: Bolt Holes in Rails, alternative thought.
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Another alternative thought is that the holes are for attaching the ends of cables that held fascines. It doesn't seem likely that an unditching beam would be carried by a tank that was carrying a fascine, since the fascine would prevent the use of the unditching beam. Yet; there are photos of tanks carrying fascines, which show the fascines secured to the tanks by cables, or by a mix of steel-wire cables and chains. Most of those photos are also at too great a distance to discern how the cables and/or chains are secured to the unditching rails of the tanks. Looking at the holes, it seems reasonable to suggest them as fastening-points for fascines; where a given tank has at some stage in its' service career been tasked with carrying and/or deploying a fascine. The necessary alterations to the unditching rails may have been accomplished in a field workshop rather than at a full repair depot. Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

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"Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense" : "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks" Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348. "Wan Schon is besser schon" "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well" Attributed to Frederich Barbarossa, Rex Germania, AD1123 to 1190.
thorst


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RE: Bolt Holes in Rails
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I don't think that the fascine has anything to do with the holes. The fascines were held in place by cables which were fastened to the tank with hooks at the corner of the bow (replacing a rivet on each side) and another hook behind the driver's turret. When the fascine was released, the latter hook was turned around, which releases the cables and made the fascine become loose.

Another set of cables secured to the back would mean that someone from the crew must work outside of the tank at the frontline, which seems not practical to me.

I am wondering if the proximity to the stowing box is there by chance, or if they are holes for ropes to secure any goods inside the stowing box... But I have no proof.

I looked through the Osprey and Haynes books on the Mark IV, and there was one picture which seems to indicate that some bolts are in these holes, I shall give the page number of the picture tomorrow. But it didn't really tell me what the bolts are for.

Thorsten

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Tonys


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Having had many years of structural design work, the drilling of holes would increase localised stresses, so that is not an option.

The use of the holes to attach holding ropes/wires would seem to be a reasonable choice, but as there are already hitching eyes on the stowage box, why have more?

There are three holes on the RHS, but four on the LHS????

Could it do with moving the unditching beam further back?

Finally, I looked up the number of the tank on the lists available and guess what??  The production number of 2179 (or any others in the 2100 range) doesn't exist!!

This is getting curiouser and curiouser!!!

Tony



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Gwyn Evans


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The Brussels Mark IV is 4093, a late production machine built by Armstrong's Whitworth. The Mark IV Female in Lincoln is painted with the number 2179. That this is fictitious has been known for many years. That Tank is actually 2743 as Richard Pullen and I proved in 2013. I'm just on my way to Lincoln to have another look at it. By the way, 2100 is a valid Mark IV number.
Gwyn


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thorst


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Fair point about the stowage.

The picture I mentioned before is on p.13 of the Osprey Mark IV volume and on p.71 of the Haynes book. The long shadows below the studs/bolts/? suggest that the items put into them are not too short, like a rivet.

What makes me wonder is that the holes seem to overlap with the side of the stowage box on some tanks (f.e. Haynes p.97 top). This makes them somehow useless if they are supposed to be non-permanent mounting points.

Thorsten

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MK1 Nut


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Now MKIV Tanks are not my thing but I always thought the holes in the rail are for bolting the chain on that hold the Unditching Beams in their resting position. I should say positions, as I have seen them stored on the top and on the sloped part of the rail at the back of the tank.

One thing I have just noticed is some have a bar between the rail support brackets, this they seem to tie their Tow Ropes up out of the way.

I'm sure I read somewhere of the Crew having to get out in battle to unbolt the chains holding the Unditching Beam.

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Tonys


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Helen,

The original position was too exposed to get out to connect up the beam, so later on (1918?) the beam was moved back so that the crew member could exit via the rear door and be far more protected.  I'm surprised that some staff wallah didn't ban that for showing cowardice - just like the way the pilots were banned from using parachutes!

Tony



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TinCanTadpole


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Looking at Helen's photo brings a thought to mind: the two sets of holes are close to the positions where unditching beams were "parked", and her pic shows some sort of metal piece fastened to at least one of the holes, so perhaps the purpose was to attach folding lugs to prop up the beam? The Mk Vs had spring-loaded lugs to keep the beam in place; the Mk IVs in question might have had an earlier version, perhaps to test the idea?

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Tonys


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Since this thing is bugging me, I've been doing more searches and came up with Lotte 2's photos on the Armortek site, where, incidently they call the cable stowage box a "spud box"!?!?

The picture below not only shows the holes previously discussed, but also holes on the top and a stiffening bar above the back of the stowage box - a German addition??

The comment on their site talks about the rails being fitted in France and therefore the probability of differing hole placements.  However, I would have thought that the rails being fitted in France would have given a more uniform fitting that if all the different factories had done it in-situ.  It could also be individual tank commanders wanting their own little additions/alterations, but I would have thought that the individual tank commander would have a very brief encounter with Central Workshops.

Any more thoughts?

Tony



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