Landships II

Hi

If it was a gift or the Argentine Army paid it, it does not change the fact that it was not a model series of Krupp. Its barrel length of 26 calibers and breech block "Maxim-Nordenfelt system" of British origin in a German-made weapon make it different from other models of the "10cm/13cm family". And meet the requirements of the Argentine Army to use the same systems as their field guns, mountain gun and howitzers in those years

Also field guns Krupp 75mm / L30 models 1896Na 1905 and Argentine Model 1909 had breech block Welin type of British origin applied to guns manufactured in Germany, Krupp only used it in the Argentine weapons and the Japanese howitzer Krupp 15cm Type38 , which also made them special

Regards

Eduardo

Hi

If confuses two different types of breech block used in different weapons, and has not been set at the pictures where those differences are not shown to understand what their reports are telling you

There is no reliable report that would contradict a weapon preserved

I have nothing more to say

Regards 

Eduardo

Hi

Everything I wrote it up with pictures of guns preserved, their factory marks, etc. that they can see, touch and measure (I have done), or pictures of manual service of these weapons

For their part only presents comments, assumptions "reliable" reports, but has not shown nothing, no photos, any reports, nothing, only comments

Over the gun of 105mm, I do not have data that they were in service, much less to be kept in reserve until 1944, but we are not talking about them.

Until we see photos of these guns in service in my country, or copies of those documents, not sentences assigned to someone, your information is unreliable

I hope that kind of evidence to change his mind.

Regards

Eduardo

Hi

Those pictures are not mine and in each case have indicated where I found

The collection of magazine Caras y Caretas it is in a forum in the Hemeroteca Digital de la Biblioteca Nacional de España  so I is it difficult for the photo showing the battery in the exercise, you have given to the magazine, unless you have more than 100 years

I just put my trademark in the photos I took, as I find or buy copies, the real and

true of that picture remains of who took it.

Regards

Eduardo

Hi

I want to explain my work to collect information.

In my point nº3  I only say, that I have not registered any "cañón de sitio" of 105m

I cannot show that they not they were, then, you show that if they were.

If you have any pictures of this gun in service in the Argentine Army, show it.

As for the pictures that I present are in a great majority of mine, taken in museums and headquarters, and I do not need documents to tell me they are, if I can see them personally. I take data directly from those guns preserved and therefore can not be assumptions. When I take Internet information I do when I know who published it. I maintain contact with military, collectors, museum curators (sometimes with the museum director) and “foristas” what they show photos of other museums or pages of books on these subjects.

If I read engraved on a 75mm cannon FRIED.KRUPP. A.G. ESSEN 1905. Nº.32. 336Kg.

I do not need any documents indicate to me that is a Krupp 75mm gun manufactured in Essen in 1905 and its serial number is 32, so I'm not assuming but verifying that the Krupp 75mm 1905 were not modified old cannons but guns manufactured in Germany in that year for the Argentine Army as they have the Argentine Shield engraved on the breech block (type Welin no "Nordenfelt Maxim-type" as you mentioned). If the hassle is taken, you can see the photo of this canyon in the thread of 75mm Krupp Argentinos (that picture is also mine), or directly in the same gun in the “Museo de Armas de la Nación del Círculo Militar”.

I also buy books and manuals of our army weapons, and other military or collectors give me documents  interesting.

The photos of the canyon in another forum presented as Krupp 240mm in Zárate, I took it of the book of Burzio  the “Historia de la Escuela Naval Militar” a copy of my property (the copy, the book is of Burzio) and digital support could possibly  show a Armstrong 8 " but never a Krupp 240mm (or they cut a piece).

Moreover internet is very wide and as can be found false or incomplete information, can be found very good pages (some pay) that are used by Universities and the World Scientific Community (eg the Balseiro Institute, Central  Atomic Bariloche what ago)

The fact that the magazine Caras y Caretas have a place in the "Hemeroteca Digital Biblioteca Nacional de España"  does nothing more than protect an important historical material of my country, but the information and graphics correspond to the staff of that magazine in those years.

The No. 4 point refers to present only  comments regarding reports that does not show us, the fact highlight  it  with bold or  quotes do not give veracity, we could say that a "reliable alien report ... .." and we could not know whether it is true or not.

It is understood. - ??

I'm not accustomed to the inconducive discussions, I never have to leave a forum…… and do not think run that risk with a bad attitude

I believe that a forum brings together a group of people with a theme of common interest and not an area of competence and to advertise oneself.-

Respect and admire those who gather written or graphic information of these weapons, but it is not reasonable to discuss only based on mysterious sources

From now on I answer only specific comments and also reasonable

I ask please excuse  Mr.Administrators for leaving the specific topic of this thread, and at the same time thank you very much my promotion to Sergeant

Regards

Eduardo

Brunner88 wrote:

You seem to  labor under some severe misapprehension       

1) That because you are ignorant of a certain fact it does not exist..which only demonstrates a narrow point of view...

2) that I am here to educate you..for you "demand" proof of this,proof of that,well, I will do so for the sake of historical accuracy..

Simly because you've never heard the term siege gun applied to the Krupp 30 does not mean it was not so considered or referred to by the Argentine Army..I refer you to

a) Historia Argentina Contemporanéa: 1862-1930 (Editorail El Atené, Buenos aires, 1966) I refer you specifivcally to the chapter entitled "Ejército Nacional" by Gen/. Augusto C. Rodriguéz, and to be excat, page 354-356. It quotes a parliamentary discussion in which the mordenance available to the Argentine Army is listed in detail,Most partricularly under"Artillería de Sitio" (Siege Artillery)  he includes both the 105mm L.35 (which you didn't know was operated by the Argentine Army..) and the Krupp 130..If you need further details.Check the Spanish Enciclopedia Espasa Calpe,it;s a multi-volume set published ed c.. 1910-See the well etailed articles for Arillery and Cannon you'll find references to siege guns (including the Spanish 120) in The Chapter under Argentine Republic you'll find references to a Krupp 13cm siege gun..These l can quote as you can probably access the in any decent sized Argentine library

Now, these sources are not "Misterious" as you claim, but readily available

As far as the Krupp mod. 1905 75 mm piece preserved at Ciudadela,have you seen the sign that states that those guns were modified in Argentine arsenals which is there for all to see?

You already have one of my pictures of the Argentine Krupp 130 mm siege gun,the one which was taken an the National Hipodrome..As they say in Spanish,"Para muestra,solo hace falta un botón" (that's all the proof you need.

I need not apologize to anyone for my manners-nor for my references which are herewith qualified by sources even you will have accesss to. I have quoted my sources.Do you have any to cite (written ones that is  published sources and not taken from INTERNET or photograhs..If so,I'll like to see them quoted..

I have not attacked you personally,  while you have-you appear to be offended because my data contradicts yours. and that simply is not my problem...I have quoted two soures for my information-three including the German diplomatic  cable...De fide Officio Judicis nn Recipitur Quaestio,sed de Scentia sit error Juris sirve facti

In short,other than a few Internet pictures, where are your proofs? and I say this on behalf  os true historical accuracy,for other reason have I none.

Any idea of how many 75mm Krupp guns were converted to box trail and rear-mounted trunnions?

It looks like a better engineered conversion than the Japanese Type 38 Kai guns.

Regards,

Charlie

Estimated Don CharlieC

I have no record, but there are graphic documentation that would indicate than was fitted at least a mixed cavalry regiment, the "Rgto 1 de Granaderos ".

I estimate that would be a dozen at least.

Its construction was unbeatable, with finishing details and elaborate technical solutions.

It differed from the 7.7 cm Feldkanone 16 (Fk 16 7.7 cm) or 7.5 cm Feldkanone 16nA (Fk 16nA 7.5 cm) Germans and other transformations made by Bofors or HIH in the axis of rotation of the overcarriage was not at the front, but is in the rear.

The following picture shows a 7.7 cm Fk 16 and within the red circles distinguished the tracks where moves  the overcarriage

In this picture you see another Fk 16 7.7 cm and  is recognized the steering wheel (within a red circle) of the screw that pushes the overcarriage side

This should not be new to you.

These pictures if they are on the Internet.

But in the Krupp 75mm canon de Caballeria, the system was totally different.

The overcarriage turn around an axis placed on its back and the movement is performed with screw endless placed in front of the gun carriage, and move  a sector gear mounted in front of the overcarriage

In the next picture (which is discussed in the previous note) you see that the steering wheel moves a shaft that acts on two bevel gears which in turn rotate the screw.

In the red circle you see where is the bevel gear box

In addition you can see than the back of the overcarriage no way to get around (see green rectangle)

Regards

Eduardo

Indeed, and the Krupp light field guns of the early 1930 (as supplied to Brazil eg) have the same hallmark. So indeed Krupp or Krupp/Bofors.

The Bulgarian field gun modification has similarly interesting equilibrators.

I think you mean the Bofors 9cm L40 M1929 gunhowitzer. The same basic desgin as the Argentine 7,5cm but bigger. Same basic design turned also in 7,5 cm - 8cm AA gun range and the Soviet 7,62 field guns!

See for pictures: http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/thread/1219747743/Best+light+field+howitzer+in+1940%3F

Hi 

Estimated Don Nuyt

It is effectively as you say, the movement mechanism is towards at the front of the carriage. It is seen in the photos.

On the subject of equilibrators must be analyzed from another point of view. Since the 20's an attitude of political commercial rapprochement Bofors (Bofors Krupp) with the Argentine government, and makes it step by step.

First it does with technical assistance in the modernization of the Krupp 75mm Argentine Model 1909. After unsuccessfully tries a second proposal for modernization using a gun carriage own design Model 1933, which retains the barrel assembly and the original Krupp 1909 elastic system. finally gets sell a model in which the proposed gun carriage used in the previous offer but using a cannon and elastic system Bofors design  based on the anti-aircraft gun Bofors 75mm L50 trimmed.

As you see it is a proposal technically it will overlap with the next, demonstrating that was trade and technical policy.

What is clear that as they some element gives a good result is adopted and remain in subsequent designs. This is the case of equilibrators that as seen in the photos the same is repeated in the three cases that I mentioned earlier.

This strategy is rewarded with a major artillery purchase of equipment for the Argentine Army, Navy and Air Force

In the three guns of the following photos, you can see in the green markings, the same type of equilibrators

Of these topics exists since from informal references to specific information verified.

As for the number cannon No. 513 (not 516 ) has nothing “mysterious” because from the beginning it was said that the “Cañón de Caballería”  (probably de1926) were the Krupp75mm Argentine Model 1909.

 On the other hand, who knows the guns of our army must remember that only the Krupp 75mm 1905 and 1909 used Welin breech block type (seen very clearly in the previous photos)

Delete a brand is very easy, but it is very difficult  engrave on steel  not only marks but the National Shield with artistic design, that was not done in our arsenals, here only numbers and letters  were marked.

Regards

Eduardo

I wonder if there isn't some simple confusion here. Nordenfelt held a number of patents for interrupted screw (Welin type) breeches and, as far as I know, marketed these along with the more famous rotating disk breech used in the French Mle 1897. Krupp patented an interrupted screw breech about 1905 - I should check if the patent refers to Nordenfelt's designs.

Regards,

Charlie

Hi

There is no way to confuse these two breech block, the "Maxim-Nordenfelt system" was designed by the staff of this company that was engaged in the business of weapons, while the second model was designed by Alex Welin, and this was his only contribution in this industry sector.

The only thing that united them was the fact that he ceded their patent to Vickers of England. Which in turn he gave licenses to other factories and other countries, including the Krupp who used the two systems.-

But, his difference is the design criteria for operation.-

The Maxim-Nordenfelt system was based on getting enough resistant surface breech block in the sum of fillets of a cylindrical body with only two threaded sectors to be rotated 90 degrees to ensure the closure. This movement is performed a sector gear driven by a gear rotating through a vertical handle placed in the center of the closure.

To achieve this resistant surface should be necessarily long, making it difficult closure, forcing to cut at some angle of the pieces that formed, or the breech box or threaded cylinder.

It was used in all Krupp guns of the Argentine Army since 1889-1902, the British used it in their field guns and mountain (QF13, 2.95 inch Mountain Gun, etc.)

The system designed by Welin was based on an ingenious breech block conical threaded staggered of six sectors, so that just rotated 45 degrees were hooked all six. This made it very short and compact as well as not requiring any cuts for the mobile block is clamped to the breech block.

The design criteria was  minimize the entire system

In the following photos you see all six threaded sectors and a vertical handle that rotates on an axis placed in the  right to the breech block

This system proved very robust so Vickers used him almost exclusively in very large naval artillery bore

There are many more system screw thread but are not Welin designs, such breech block Elswick Ordnance (with a conical sector and another cylindrical) De Bange the primitive, etc.

The last picture is of Krupp gun 75mm L30 1896 manufactured in Essen in 1905 for the Argentine Army, and the next picture is clearly visible brands and the Argentine National Shield of that canyon and can not be made more than in the factory and not by the "bad boys who change posters" .......

 FRIED KRUPP. A.G. ESSEN 1905  Nº32  336Kg.

To be clear this issue once, it is a Krupp cannon model 1896 barrel modified in the workshops of Krupp in 1905, in the same way the German Army received its guns Krupp 77mm FK 96 nA who were cannons 1896 fully modified by Krupp in 1904.

Regards

Eduardo

Hi

Saying that there is no historical evidence  when  they are cannon preserved  is strange, because it is taxed and stamped by the same Krupp. It means that the cannon was generated by a magical event ???  It was a gift from the Germans ??? As they appeared in Argentina ???

It also is engraved the Nº36 and you say , the Krupp guns  are consecutively numbered and   so at least there were 36 of them.-

Moreover, if there is documentation that supports its existence and corresponds to a confidential report of an officer of G2, name and rank John F. Long - Colonel- CSC  Military Atached in his report of 23 August 1943 acknowledges having identified and photographed artillery equipment during the Revolution of 1943.

Mentioned in this report as

…. Ítem c) .75mm gun Krupp Mod 1898? Modified in 1905 and IDENTICALY THE SAME AS THE NEXT ITEM…..

…..Itemd) 75mm gun Krupp L30 Argentine Model 1909……

It should be understood that found no evidence that those guns are not manufactured in Germany it had been otherwise mentioned as it would be an interesting fact to indicate where it would have amended.-

Another thing you see is that he found the two identical models, ie with the same breech block because it is unthinkable that an American colonel of intelligence service has not been able to differentiate (in 1943) the two breech block that were totally different.

Then not only the Krupp 1905 were in service in the Argentine Army, but did so for almost 40 years.

Or should we be suspicious of an American officer G2?

I remember his own phrase

….You seem to  labor under some severe misapprehension       

1) That because you are ignorant of a certain fact it does not exist..which only demonstrates a narrow point of view...

2) that I am here to educate you..for you "demand" proof of this,proof of that,well,

     I will do so for the sake of historical accuracy……

Regards

Eduardo

Hi

I have already said, I do not care if you bought, or found in a flower pot, the weapon exists and is well preserved, the museum has the necessary information, and also Colonel John F. Long Intelligence Service (G2 American) identified him, he takes note of their inscriptions and described it accurately (his model, year of manufacture, the estimated length of the barrel, etc.) almost 40 years after its date of manufacture.

While You will considered as the reference book Historia Argentina Contemporánea 1862-1930 de Alberto Palcos  (not Cnel. Augusto C. Rodriguez that you mention, which is only an adviser) and its four bulky volumes of our artillery devotes only two half pages of Volume II, p. 364 and 365 (not 354-356) and only four words to the cannon 10,5cm

It is a report without any detail, does not indicate model, year of manufacture, its barrel length, not even if muzzle loading (we know that not, but as no data ....).

Consider  heavy howitzer a cannon  L 30.8  it is somewhat misplaced or have little knowledge of what is a howitzer

On the other hand it is a very incomplete report because in his list does not mention the most important guns of Argentine Army arsenal  of that time

The cannon Schneider 155 mm L30,8 Modelo Argentino 1928

The howitzer Schneider 155mm L15  Modelo Argentino 1928

The anti-aircraft gun Skoda 76,5mm L50 Modelo Argentino 1928

That is, they "forgot" the largest and most powerful guns (they did not see them??)

If you consider this as important information ......

In any case this discussion adds nothing to the subject of  130mm L26cannon, to the forum in general, so I leave to participate.

Say what you like and think what he wants, It is your right.

Regards

Eduardo

Apologies for the interrupted message chaps! don't know what happened. To continue:

That is, they "forgot" the largest and most powerful guns (they did not see them??)

That has already been explained,however,the question evolved around weapons purchased before 1909, as I recall 

In any case this discussion adds nothing to the subject of  130mm L26cannon, to the forum in general, so I leave to participate.

 Nothing? Perhaps you  consider the fact that the  book  established both the quantity of 130s operated by the Argentine Army, and that it was classified as"NOTHING"  nt, but others (other than me) think just the opposite.

Say what you like and think what he wants, It is your right.

Apparently the fact that I am voicing my opinion,, apparently bothers, annoys an d angers you.If you object to my opinions (something clearly indicated by the frustrated,and angry   tones of your replies)  you are angered by any opinion that contradicts you own....So be it..

M y opinions are backed by published fcts and by reports from various sources..it is what they call investigative research. The Krupp records I have for Argentina and Chile are the quite clear about the guns purchased 1890-1909. I know, from past discussions with other members of this forum that I am not the only one that has access to these records(as somebody else quoted the Chilean purchase taken, also from Krupp records...but then again, you say that you "do not belive in papers" It is precisely inn such papers that humans recod their history.......

Hi

I open the topic again because these days I have found information that I consider important.

When Mr. Brunner "assured" and said:

….”This might have been true of the 75 mm. field guns mod. 1895,1898 and the mountain guns 75 mm. mod. 1896 and 1898, but not applicable to the Krupps 130swhich were a personal gigt of Kaiser Wiliam II to the Argentine Republic”….

…”I beg to differ: there's one reliable German diplomatic report tat even gives the quantity of the siege guns donated by the Kaiser to The Argentine”…..

…”Just check my information from your side of the Ocean(once I quote the book and chapter available in your country) before you go on assuming....then we'll see”…..

…”Anybody can copy and paste from the INTERNET-.”….

He was wrong again, since when checking the information(from this side of the ocean) I found that in the Doctoral Thesis of General (R) OIM Dr. Enrique Rodolfo Dick ("La modernización del Ejercito Argentino en el marco del modelo Aleman (1899-1914))”, in the references, there is a copy of the file  Verzeichnis der von der GuBstahlfabrik und Grussonwerk von 1847 bis 1912 Gefertigten Kanonen (Geheim) Essen – 1912-1918  In which they appear contracts for 13 guns of 130mm L26 in the years 1902/1903 (according to Krupp in a single contract, and according to Mj. A. Duval for only 12 in a first contract, but in another contract they will add one more along with spare parts and ammunitions).

This information can be seen in the “Biblioteca Central de la Universidad del Salvador” de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires – Argentina.

Brigadier General Enrique Rodolfo Dick was Director of Production at the General Directorate of “Fabricaciones Militares” and then Director of Research, Development and Production of the Argentine Army.

Titles: Military Engineer in Armaments, Technical Superior School of the Army. Master's Degree in Aeronautical Engineering Aerodynamic orientation.

He is a member of the Institute of Argentine Military History, member of the Military History Group of the National Academy of History and Academic of the National Sanmartiniano Institute.

If the Argentine Government paid them, if Krupp made a discount, or the Argentine Army did not pay them I do not know , the important point is that they were a "special" order from our Army with specific characteristics such as caliber, length of its barrel and in particular its "breech system Maxim- Nordenfelt”.

Mr Brunner should re-read his sentence

…”You seem to  labor under 1) That because you are ignorant of a certain fact it does not exist..which only demonstrates a narrow point of view...

some severe misapprehension”…..

The fact that he has not been able to find such contracts does not mean that they did not exist. The General (R) IOM Dr. Enrique Rodolfo Dick, if he found them.

And it's not from the Internet .......

It's from the libraries…….

Regards

Eduardo

CONGRATULATIONS!!! IT ONLY TOOK YOU  7  MONTHS TO ATTEMPT A REPLY (and I say attempt because it failed to make its point: Quel Dommage!!

1) I am well aware of Mayor Gral Dick's book I have a copy personally dedicated to me by the author on 28 October 2014-so, you can rest assured that I know quite well who he is..and that he knows who I am.....

You have misinterpreted the data pn page 301 pf that book: The first column refers to the quantities shown in Krupp records ( in this case 13) the second column DOES NOT SHOW ADDIIONAL CONTRACTS, but the quantities cited by Major Duval of the Brazilian Army !!!!1 
 
There are two  additional points you fail to mention:
1) The correct designation for the Krupp 130mm L.26 is "Siege gun" (cañòn de sitio") as I have always maintained, and not "Heavy gun" as you erroneously  labeled it..

2) The list does not include any Krupp 75 mm mod. 1905 field guns purchased in Germany, as I have so often stated in another post...
Better luck in your next attempt at a reply..

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