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Post Info TOPIC: St.-Chamond Tank Prints at the National Archives


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St.-Chamond Tank Prints at the National Archives
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At US National Archives, College Park Maryland, there are 16 folders of prints for the Artillerie St-Chamond Tracteur Cuirasse De 90HP.  I have attached the cover of one of them.  I did not have time to go through them, but I have attached the loose St.-Chamond drawings that I found in the file box.  

Found these on my last day of my week visit in late March 2020.  I have just enough time to go through and document the British tank prints (passed on to David Fletcher) and the Fiat 2000 tank prints (passed onto the replica builders in Italy), well as some of the files that I was looking for.

IMG_6826a.jpgIMG_6843a.jpgIMG_6845a.jpgIMG_6846a.jpgIMG_6847a.jpgIMG_6848a.jpg

 



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Neal


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That certainly fills in a bit more about the Mark IV and IVA self-propelled guns built at the Rock Island Arsenal in 1918.

It's thought the motivation for building the Mark IV/IVA was the failure of the Holt Mark III with the 240mm gun - this proved to

be very heavy and had poor mobility.

It was surmised that the US Ordnance Dept had obtained plans for the St-Chamond SPG which now appears to be confirmed.

Presumably the plans were sent over before the decision was made in France to not adopt the St-Chamond 220mm howitzer and instead

use the 280mm Mle 1914 Schneider howitzer for the SPG. 

The US made Mark IV/IVA used the new 240mm Schneider howitzer which did go into service after WW1 as the 240mm Howitzer Model 1918.

The images are of the Mark IV/IVA

Regards,

Charlie

 



-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 8th of July 2021 11:32:12 PM

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Neal wrote:

At US National Archives, College Park Maryland, there are 16 folders of prints for the Artillerie St-Chamond Tracteur Cuirasse De 90HP.  I have attached the cover of one of them.  I did not have time to go through them, but I have attached the loose St.-Chamond drawings that I found in the file box.  

Found these on my last day of my week visit in late March 2020.  I have just enough time to go through and document the British tank prints (passed on to David Fletcher) and the Fiat 2000 tank prints (passed onto the replica builders in Italy), well as some of the files that I was looking for.

 


 

Hello,

     

    I know this is an old post but do remember what British prints you located in the records at NARA? Do you have a file group or NAID # for them?

 

Thanks in advance.



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Attached is the photograph of one of seven box fronts that contained the WWI tank and SPG prints that I discussed in my original post.  The boxes are in in the military history collection at the US National Archives at College Park Maryland.  The important piece of information are the box numbers 385-391.  Since record groups can contain a large number of boxes. 

A word of warning.  They do re-box, to consolidate collections, so the box numbers can change.  But they are supposed to have a record tying the old box number to the new one.

This was such a great find, since the T. T. & T. History Files are supposed to include documents on almost all WWI and early post war military tanks, tractors and trucks.  I didn't find documents on all those listed in the index to the file.  But they could be in other related boxes.  I'm still planning on returning to go through this record group, when I return to the NA and hopefully will have time set aside to do it justice. 

Here is a list, in the order of discovery, of the British prints (simple general dimension drawings to detailed 3 view cross sections) that I found: Mark VIII Tank (Anglo-American), Lt. Col. Philip Johnson's Medium D (prototype, D. M. Female, cannon, MG armed with different driver's positions), PJ's Rope Spring Suspension, PJ's 8-20-20 Machine or Tropical Tank, Gun Carrier Salvage Machine, Medium Mark B, Medium Mark C, Mark VII, Mark I, Mark IV, Mark V, Mark V X, Mark V XX, Supply Tank, Medium Mark A and Tank Mechanical Maintenance Mark V manual.



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Neal


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The existence of drawings and (presumably) other data on post-WW1 tank designs suggests a continuing formal collaboration between the British and American tank designers

for at least a few years after WW1. The US M1922 prototype with Johnson's snake track and cable suspension was built at the Rock Island Arsenal and shipped to Aberdeen in 1923. 

I wonder if there are any remaining documents about the collaboration from the British side?

Charlie



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Very Interesting find

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Neal wrote:

Attached is the photograph of one of seven box fronts that contained the WWI tank and SPG prints that I discussed in my original post.  The boxes are in in the military history collection at the US National Archives at College Park Maryland.  The important piece of information are the box numbers 385-391.  Since record groups can contain a large number of boxes. 

A word of warning.  They do re-box, to consolidate collections, so the box numbers can change.  But they are supposed to have a record tying the old box number to the new one.

This was such a great find, since the T. T. & T. History Files are supposed to include documents on almost all WWI and early post war military tanks, tractors and trucks.  I didn't find documents on all those listed in the index to the file.  But they could be in other related boxes.  I'm still planning on returning to go through this record group, when I return to the NA and hopefully will have time set aside to do it justice. 

Here is a list, in the order of discovery, of the British prints (simple general dimension drawings to detailed 3 view cross sections) that I found: Mark VIII Tank (Anglo-American), Lt. Col. Philip Johnson's Medium D (prototype, D. M. Female, cannon, MG armed with different driver's positions), PJ's Rope Spring Suspension, PJ's 8-20-20 Machine or Tropical Tank, Gun Carrier Salvage Machine, Medium Mark B, Medium Mark C, Mark VII, Mark I, Mark IV, Mark V, Mark V X, Mark V XX, Supply Tank, Medium Mark A and Tank Mechanical Maintenance Mark V manual.


 

Thank you so much for the reply. I definitely need to plan a trip to College Park. I've been trying research the Mark VIII and the M1922 Medium Tank (which was inspired by the Medium D)... I've always found the "snake-track" tanks to be fascinating.

My wife and I are already planning a trip to Ft. Moore next year during one of the open house weekends. The previous archive material that was stored at Aberdeen is now there (although no word if it is open for research). I've also been researching out to the Bovington Tank Museum, but it is a slow process... and lastly the Rock Island Arsenal Museum... which is glacial compared to Bovington...



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Legend

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The M1922 prototype tank which was at Aberdeen is at Anniston Army Storage Depot, Bynum, Alabama. I asked them about it some years ago, at that

time they were open to researchers accessing the vehicles they had acquired from various collections in the US.

Charlie

 



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CharlieC wrote:

 

The M1922 prototype tank which was at Aberdeen is at Anniston Army Storage Depot, Bynum, Alabama. I asked them about it some years ago, at that

time they were open to researchers accessing the vehicles they had acquired from various collections in the US.

Charlie

 


 

If you don't mind me asking, how were you able to contact the correct people to make such a request? I have trouble getting responses from even the Rock Island Arsenal Museum... an actual open to the public museum.

The Armor Collection at Fort Moore is technically only open the public on open house days... and I was actually unaware the M1922 was in storage in another location. The Armor Collection at Fort Moore is also the current location of the entire collection of archive documents that was at APG.



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Legend

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It's not what you know - it's who you know. I have a contact who was a senior instructor at Carlisle and he knew someone

who knew the people to ask about the M1922. It was 10 years ago and although my contact is retired from the US Army he

does maintain his contacts so I can ask again - PM me an email address and I'll copy you in on the emails.

Regards,

Charlie

 



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