Landships II

MarkV · Lieutenant-Colonel

Brand New Tank Photo

Mark Hansen · Legend

Nice find. There's another shot at the same site of some Medium C's sent to suppress what was thought to be a Bolshevik uprising.

Vilkata · Brigadier

Very cool!!!

That's a frameable photo!

The colors and detail level make it very striking. Excellent find!

---Vil.

MarkV · Lieutenant-Colonel

Hello,

Here's one more: tank in street

It's not as clear as the others but I thought I'd complete the set of tank photos on the Glasgow website.

Mark

Centurion · Legend

While we are looking at tanks in Glasgow try this video clip of a tank (mk iV) in the snow. Note the head poping out of the roof hatch.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/videos.cfm?vid=138

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

While we are looking at tanks in Glasgow try this video clip of a tank (mk iV) in the snow. Note the head poping out of the roof hatch.

http://heritage.scotsman.com/videos.cfm?vid=138

That's the same tank as in the tank in street photo. Interesting that it went back to Glasgow to deal with the strike after doing its war bond duty.

Centurion · Legend

I'd assumed that the tank bank was Jullian. Jullian was the standard tank bank in a number of cities (as various photos testify) and certainly got sent to Scotland for this duty (I've found a photo of Julian on a train in Scotland). The idea was that the city that raised the most war bonds got to keep Jullian.

Centurion · Legend

The thought has occured - could the Glasgow street photo be mis captioned? I've seen photos of some of the tanks sent to the strike in 1919 and these were Mk Vs (as one would expect in 1919 - why keep the Mk IVs in service?) Could this photo be of the tank bank arriving in Glasgow in early 1918? Similar parades were held in other cities to mark its arrival there.

Centurion · Legend

It is Julian! See enclosed photos of this tank as a tank bank in Swindon and on a train in Scotland

Centurion · Legend

Re my 3 previous posts - see above. I believe the enclosed shows the tanks that went to Glasgow for the strike.

-- Edited by Centurion at 17:41, 2006-08-17

Mark Hansen · Legend

Centurion wrote:

The thought has occured - could the Glasgow street photo be mis captioned? I've seen photos of some of the tanks sent to the strike in 1919 and these were Mk Vs (as one would expect in 1919 - why keep the Mk IVs in service?) Could this photo be of the tank bank arriving in Glasgow in early 1918? Similar parades were held in other cities to mark its arrival there.

It wouldn't be the first time a photo has been miscaptioned. As you've pointed out, it is Julian and by the time of the Glasgow strike the Mk V had replaced the Mk IV. It seems a little odd that male Mk V's were sent. I don't think the strikers would have had access to any tanks themselves.

Centurion · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

Centurion wrote:

The thought has occured - could the Glasgow street photo be mis captioned? I've seen photos of some of the tanks sent to the strike in 1919 and these were Mk Vs (as one would expect in 1919 - why keep the Mk IVs in service?) Could this photo be of the tank bank arriving in Glasgow in early 1918? Similar parades were held in other cities to mark its arrival there.

It wouldn't be the first time a photo has been miscaptioned. As you've pointed out, it is Julian and by the time of the Glasgow strike the Mk V had replaced the Mk IV. It seems a little odd that male Mk V's were sent. I don't think the strikers would have had access to any tanks themselves.

I think that if any of the tank guns had been used it would have been regarded as a political disaster on the Peterloo massacre scale. The tanks were not so much strike breaking as sending a message - "no 1917 revolutions here if you please - yer ge'tha' Jimmy?"

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Regarding the possible mis-captioning of the Glasgow "Tank in Street" photo, the "mood" of this image seems more typical of a rather tense strike than a Tank Bank arrival, which tended to be festive, holiday-like affairs, attended by a wide range of citizenry. The largely male crowd looks quite glum, and note the soldiers' fixed bayonets. Just an impression, though. I recall that Patrick Wright discussed the use of tanks for strike breaking in 1919 at some length in "Tank".

Centurion · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

Regarding the possible mis-captioning of the Glasgow "Tank in Street" photo, the "mood" of this image seems more typical of a rather tense strike than a Tank Bank arrival, which tended to be festive, holiday-like affairs, attended by a wide range of citizenry. The largely male crowd looks quite glum, and note the soldiers' fixed bayonets. Just an impression, though. I recall that Patrick Wright discussed the use of tanks for strike breaking in 1919 at some length in "Tank".

Knowing Glasgow as I do (I lived and worked there in the 1970s when the Trongate still looked much like the photo) thats about as festive as you used to get in that no mean city! Seriously I think the key points are that Julian was one of the touring fund raising tanks (another was called Egbert) and this tank is Julian. At the end of the war the surviving Mk IVs (and a couple of Mk IIIs) were sent to the towns and cities that had raised money for the war effory and decommissioned there (usualy by having the drive chains removed), becoming memorials (only to be scrapped in 1940/41). Its almost certain that Julian would have been treated like this and so would have been unavailable for the strike.

Centurion · Legend

Just a little more on the Glasgow tanks.

A detachment of the 5th Tank Batt. was despatched by rail to Glasgow "in support of the civil power" in Feb 1919. At that time the 5th were equiped with Mk Vs. The tanks were based at Maryhill Barracks until some time in 1921 (the photo posted earlier shows three of them still at Maryhill at that date). Apparently the tanks made a show of strength in the Gallowgate (and not the Trongate) in 1919 in conjunction with a major exercise in which thousands of troops fanned out from Maryhill and occupied the streets setting up heavy machine gun posts at strategic road junctions. The streets remained under military occupation for about a week. The riot act had ben read and any attempt at crowd forming was largely supressed. This doesn't really match the picture of Julian in the Trongate. I enclose a picture taken in 1917 of a Flag Day in Springhill Glasgow with a dummy tank. The degree of festivity (or its lack) about matches the Trongate photo

Although the whole sorry situation started with a general strike call to support a 40 hour week demand, the calling in of troops seems to have been sparked off by some impressive rioting and the issuing of communist leaflets entitled "A call to arms". The government of the day was very sensitive to anything that looked even a bit like a Bolshevick revolution.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Centurion wrote:

The degree of festivity (or its lack) about matches the Trongate photo

Perhaps this lack of Scottish enthusiasm for tanks explains my own "wee lassie's" rather dour reaction to the suggestion of Bovington as our next holiday destination!

David Fletcher has speculated that Julian may have eventually been presented to the Scottish town of Duns; apparantly records for presentation tanks in Scotland are sparse. Perhaps Julian's presentation occurred after the events of January 1919 in Glasgow?

Mark Hansen · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

Centurion wrote:

The degree of festivity (or its lack) about matches the Trongate photo

Perhaps this lack of Scottish enthusiasm for tanks explains my own "wee lassie's" rather dour reaction to the suggestion of Bovington as our next holiday destination!

I get the same reaction about the AWM from my wife and daughter! At least I can drop them off at another tourist spot while I go to the REAL reason for our Canberra visit!

Centurion · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

David Fletcher has speculated that Julian may have eventually been presented to the Scottish town of Duns; apparantly records for presentation tanks in Scotland are sparse. Perhaps Julian's presentation occurred after the events of January 1919 in Glasgow?

I assume you refer to the following from the Tank Museum web site. BTW Troops and tanks were deployed in Glasgow in Feb 1919

"And so, to news of Julian; that picture of the tank on a railway wagon has been tentatively identified as Duns, a small market town not far from Berwick-upon-Tweed where, according to the records, Julian arrived on 10 October 1918. However it also seems, as with England, that there was a prize for the town that raised most, per head of population during the tour. In Scotland it seems that Duns was the winning town and that Julian was the prize so we now wonder whether that postcard shows Julian at Duns in October 1918, on the tour, or in 1919 when it arrived to take up residence. And

does anyone have a photo of Julian in his final resting place? "

It seems unlikely that having sent a detachment of the 5th Batt with Mk Vs to Glasgow the authorities would also divert a clapped out Mk IV as well

Centurion · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

Nice find. There's another shot at the same site of some Medium C's sent to suppress what was thought to be a Bolshevik uprising.

Actually a miners strike 1922, it was the 1919 strike and riots that were thought to be a bolshie revolution.

Centurion · Legend

the following from the Tank Museum web site."And so, to news of Julian; that picture of the tank on a railway wagon has been tentatively identified as Duns, a small market town not far from Berwick-upon-Tweed where, according to the records, Julian arrived on 10 October 1918. However it also seems, as with England, that there was a prize for the town that raised most, per head of population during the tour. In Scotland it seems that Duns was the winning town and that Julian was the prize so we now wonder whether that postcard shows Julian at Duns in October 1918, on the tour, or in 1919 when it arrived to take up residence. And does anyone have a photo of Julian in his final resting place? "

Unfortunately the Tank Museum is incorrect. A railway web site has now positively identified the train as being at Inveresk (about 10 miles out of Edinburgh) so the date would be Feb or v early March 1918

Julian toured both English and Scottish towns and so could have been a prize in either country! I have found two other towns claiming to be Julian's final resting place, these being Walsall in the West Midlands and Aberdeen in the North East of Scotland. Julian did visit both towns. However the photo in the Walsall web site 'showing' Julian in 1920 is actually of a female tank so scratch Walsall. Aberdeen has no photo I can find, however the account of Julian becoming the Aberdeen tank contains internal inconsistencies and one must assume that some other tank was delivered to the Granite City so far leaving Duns winner on points. I'm putting together an account of Julians's journeys and will post later.

The photo of Julian in the street is increasingly looking like being that of its arrival in Glasgow in Jan 1918 and nothing to do with Jan 1919. I can imagine a newspaper sub editor saying "we've got to run this story about tanks in the streets of Glasgow have we got a photo?" and someone from photographics saying "this is close enough, don't let the facts interfere with a good storey"

It appears that the touring tanks (Egbert, Julian and Nelson) were all Cambrai veterans so it would be interesting to know their original history.

Rhomboid · Field Marshal

Centurion wrote:

The photo of Julian in the street is increasingly looking like being that of its arrival in Glasgow in Jan 1918 and nothing to do with Jan 1919.

The uniforms of the soldiers seen in the "Tank in Street" photo may support your contention, Centurion. The Glengarry caps suggest Scottish troops, while the Red Clydeside site states that Scottish troops were excluded from internal security duties in Glasgow following the Jan.31, 1919 riot. The photo of the Medium C's billetted in the Saltmarket area shows heavy tanks in the background, but all seem to have unditching rails, as seen on the Mk.V's at the Maryhill barracks.

Gibot and Gorczynski list an "Egbert II" (2346) on the strength of E Bn. on Nov. 20, 1917, under the command of 2/Lt. E.S. Blackwell. They have no listing for a Julian or Nelson, nor do they give further details of Egbert II's service.

Does anyone know why the travelling tank banks had large, 3 digit numbers like the training tanks - were they mostly ex-training machines?

Centurion · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

Gibot and Gorczynski list an "Egbert II" (2346) on the strength of E Bn. on Nov. 20, 1917, under the command of 2/Lt. E.S. Blackwell. They have no listing for a Julian or Nelson, nor do they give further details of Egbert II's service.

Does anyone know why the travelling tank banks had large, 3 digit numbers like the training tanks - were they mostly ex-training machines?

See my posting on tank tours. The travelling tanks were 'sold' in the contemporary publicity as being Cambrai veterans - whether this was true or a bit of WW1 PR spin needs to be confirmed. I suspect that they would have been transfered to a different command, possibly training - hence the numbering. I think that Julian may have been named after Julian Byng Co Tank Corps and Nelson got the name as it started its tour under the shadow of Nelson's column in Trafalgar square. Perhaps Egbert was the original one pulled out of front line service and repaired?

Mark Hansen · Legend

Rhomboid wrote:

Does anyone know why the travelling tank banks had large, 3 digit numbers like the training tanks - were they mostly ex-training machines?

Most of the tanks were ex-training machines but all seemed to have been given a "combat" story when they were awarded. There were a few that did see combat but they were definitely in the minority.

Centurion · Legend

Mark Hansen wrote:

Rhomboid wrote:

Does anyone know why the travelling tank banks had large, 3 digit numbers like the training tanks - were they mostly ex-training machines?

Most of the tanks were ex-training machines but all seemed to have been given a "combat" story when they were awarded. There were a few that did see combat but they were definitely in the minority.

Are you conflating the touring tanks of 1918 and the presentation tanks of 1919? There were a great number of the latter almost always female and probably all ex training. They are often mixed up with Julian Egbert and Nelson (for example press articles on the one presented to Luton claim it to be Edgar but a photo shows it to be a female tank). I've been slowly collecting photos of the presentation tanks. Not all of them have a number but those that do all (so far) fall into the 200 series whereas the touring tanks were all male and numbers appear to be in the 100 series (signifigance of this remains unclear - to me at least).

I think the combat stories were aquired after presentation (in much the same way as their mis identification with one of the touring tanks). The presentation ceremony appears to have gone as follows

Tank commander (a Lt) makes a brief formal speech presenting the tank to the town in recognition of its services to the war effort (almost certainly written for him). Mayor accepts tank with flowery speech about what a marvelous job the town has done, how much was raised per head of population etc etc. Much clapping and cheering.

I can so far only find details of four touring tanks 113 Julian, 130 Nelson, 141 Egbert and 148 name unkown but possibly Lincoln. These were awarded to towns raising the most per head of population but mentions of their being ex serving tanks appear before the end of the tour. They are more likely to have been ex combat.