ok, this unlike a lot of the topics here has personal intrest to me, while my great grandfathers did fight in the first world war, my great grandmother was a german political refugee (thats what her parents said) but, they sought political asylum BEFORE WWI, but i havent been able to find out what they were fleeing, as far as we know they were not jews, as she was brought up roman catholic, and later converted to church of christ. they changed their last name considerably, and my great great grandparents forbid my great grandmother from learning german for fear of being found out by whoever they had fled. no idea why this is, and i was hoping with all the great historical minds on this forum i could figure this out. given the time, as far as i know my great grandmother was born either in germany or right before they settled here in texas (given the huge german community here that much isnt a surprise) and they also didnt settle near one of the major german settlements, but rather more out on their own. again unusual, anyone know of any type of diaspora from this prewar era? as far as i know they came over sometime between 1900 and 1914, probably around 1910.
It is a common misconception that Jews were targeted exclusively in Germany even before WW1. This simply is not true. In fact, Germany and England became places of social refuge for Jews during the Habsburg rule in Spain, and the Catholic Church's edics against them. Though there was indeed much discrimination against them in Central Europe, the same was true over much of the world. Actually, they prospered quite well in Germany despite the stigma some assigned them, and many of their number rose to prominent social, political, and military status. As examples, Bismark's personal friend, and financier was Jewish. The Kaiser's chauffer, whom he was quite fond of, was Jewish. Lt. W. Frankl the air ace was Jewish, and was awarded the Blue Max. The famed General Von Sanders also was Jewish. I could go on, but the point is do not confuse the social/political climate of the two wars.
The greatest flood of German migration to the USA occured during and after the 1848 revolution. (Republicanism, and socialism were deemed political poison by European monarchies.) If your family arrived in the early 20th century I doubt they were fleeing poverty. (German economy was the fastest growing in Europe at the time.) It is quite likely they may have been living in Alsac, and weren't happy with German administration. Large numbers of Germans from that locale did migrate to the US around the turn of the century following the acquistion of Alsac by Germany in 1871.
Name alteration was common in the USA with Germans gaining citizenship. Meiers became Meyers, Mullers became Muellers, Hoffmanns became Huffmans, etc. All in an attempt to assimilate into the USA population and culture as quickly as possible.
Incidently since you are from Texas, are you familiar with the German community in Galveston that refused to renounce their new USA citizenship in 1861, and were bloodied by the Confederacy?
It is a common misconception that Jews were targeted exclusively in Germany even before WW1. This simply is not true. In fact, Germany and England became places of social refuge for Jews during the Habsburg rule in Spain, and the Catholic Church's edics against them. Though there was indeed much discrimination against them in Central Europe, the same was true over much of the world. Actually, they prospered quite well in Germany despite the stigma some assigned them, and many of their number rose to prominent social, political, and military status. As examples, Bismark's personal friend, and financier was Jewish. The Kaiser's chauffer, whom he was quite fond of, was Jewish. Lt. W. Frankl the air ace was Jewish, and was awarded the Blue Max. The famed General Von Sanders also was Jewish. I could go on, but the point is do not confuse the social/political climate of the two wars.
The greatest flood of German migration to the USA occured during and after the 1848 revolution. (Republicanism, and socialism were deemed political poison by European monarchies.) If your family arrived in the early 20th century I doubt they were fleeing poverty. (German economy was the fastest growing in Europe at the time.) It is quite likely they may have been living in Alsac, and weren't happy with German administration. Large numbers of Germans from that locale did migrate to the US around the turn of the century following the acquistion of Alsac by Germany in 1871.
Name alteration was common in the USA with Germans gaining citizenship. Meiers became Meyers, Mullers became Muellers, Hoffmanns became Huffmans, etc. All in an attempt to assimilate into the USA population and culture as quickly as possible.
Incidently since you are from Texas, are you familiar with the German community in Galveston that refused to renounce their new USA citizenship in 1861, and were bloodied by the Confederacy?
oh i am quite aware that there were plenty of promonant german jews, and i did not mean to imply that this was limited to germany, huge numbers of jewish russian immigrants came over during the late 1800s fleeing tsarist opression, it was opression of jews in england that inspired marx to become an atheist, lenin was a jew, and trotsky who was also jewish, grew up in a jewish collective farm. so on and so forth.
and no i hadnt heard of that, but it dosent surprise me. during WWI i dont think there were any concnetration camps here, but, during WWII there was a large concentration camp in crystal city which housed several thousand people of german heritage. now texas does have a large ammount of german heritage, esspecialy in the new braunfels area. and i know name alteration was common, but in this case it was fairly extreme, the name went from something like Minterling to being Ling, which seems unusual to me. i dont think they were fleeing economic troubles, but rather political ones, and i will look into this alsac thing.
The greatest flood of German migration to the USA occured during and after the 1848 revolution. (Republicanism, and socialism were deemed political poison by European monarchies.) If your family arrived in the early 20th century I doubt they were fleeing poverty. (German economy was the fastest growing in Europe at the time.) It is quite likely they may have been living in Alsac, and weren't happy with German administration. Large numbers of Germans from that locale did migrate to the US around the turn of the century following the acquistion of Alsac by Germany in 1871.
i mentioned this last night to my grandmother, and surprise surprise she mentioned that they were originaly living in alsac!! so i suppose this solves the mystery! thank you very much!
One itsy bitty minor quibble - its Alsace not Alsac
Alsace Lorraine was once part of an independant state known as the Palatinate ruled by the Duke of Lorraine. In the 17th century it was regarded as one of the many states that made up Germany (then more a geographical region than a political one) it's where German Shepherd dogs (commonly known in the UK as Alsatians) came from. It was acquired for France by Louis XIV through some less than ethical (by today's standards) means. In 1870 it was annexed by Germany. In 1919 it became French again. In 1940 back to Germany but in 1945 French once more. An inhabitant of Alasace is technically an Alsatian (just as an inhabitant of a certain area that kept changing hamds between Ausrto Hungary, Italy, Yugoslavia and now Croatia is a Dalmatian). Of course one can understand why Texas would seem more stable, after all its only been Spanish then Mexican then independant then American
Interestingly I believe the last survivor of the German 1914 -18 army came from Alsace.
BTW My old French teacher when much younger and being fluent in French had been parachuted into France to support the Resistance, he was very soon picked up by the Germans because his French accent was Alsatian and stood out a mile (he spent a very unpleasant time as a guest of the Gestapo in la Frenais prison in Paris). All of his pupils at my school left speaking French with (unbeknown to us) an Alsace accent which is one reason why I can get along reading French but can never make myself understood in France! I always like to think that he was the original of the gendarme in the British sit com Allo Allo
Rich, Robert, absolutely rich .... I swear, you are the best story teller I've met on the net.
t is now time for me to confess my own stupid behavior while researching at Freiburg. While walking back to my room one afternoon( almost 2 miles from the Archives, I was preoccupied by gazing to my right at the mountains of Wurtenberg. All the time students were bicycling past me on the way to the train station, and then cutting over in front of me to continue on the journey up the sidewalk. I happened to look down and noted a bicycle symble on the side of the walk I was strolling on. Closer inspection reveled a "walking" symble on the left portion of the sidewalk. I then realized all these students had been forced to veer around me. So, prudently I quickly moved to the left of the walk, and "wham!", I was run over by a cyclist. After a short tumble I got up muttering quick appologies , and begging forgiveness for my American stupidity. A young lady, perhaps 16 or 17, was picking up her bicycle, She turned and approached me, and with flawless King's English, asked if I was injured. I replied in her tongue that I was indeed unharmed. She again asked if I was without injury, and then courtiously bade me a good evening; still speaking in flawless English.
All this after a particularly embarressing two days at the Archives where the curator politely had asked Thomas Jentz( he, Hilery Doyle, and I were the only one's in the bowels of the place) to help with my inquiries because she couldn't understand half of what I was saying ( my family spoke in low-Deutsch). A most sobering experience to say the least.....
Yes it isn't only America and Britain divided by a common language. Things also drift. An old working colleague of mine was Afrikans by origin and upbringing and on making her first visit to the ancestral homeland in the north Netherlands was mortified to find that no one could understand her 'Dutch' and then surprised to discover that Flemish speakers in Belgium understood her perfectly. Back on the WW1 subjects I understand that language was a major problem in the Austro Hungarian empire - so much so that an artificial language called "Official German" (that wasn't actually German proper) was created for state business. A KuK warship could have a mixture of crew members whose first languages might be Polish, Italian, Magyar, Czech, Slovene, Serbo Croat and several different varieties of German. There is a story , I don't know if true or not, of the crew of a KuK aircraft who were reduced to communicating in Latin! I sometimes think that the old Austro Hungarian Empire and today's EU have more in common than meets the eye (or ear).
You forgot to mention Roumanian, Slovak, Yiddish, Friulic, Ruthenian (allright, Ukrainian) and Roma, and several dozen obscure dialects and languages that were slowly dying out during the 19th and early 20th century (like the two Dalmatian languages, one slavic, one roman) ;)
One itsy bitty minor quibble - its Alsace not Alsac
Alsace Lorraine was once part of an independant state known as the Palatinate ruled by the Duke of Lorraine. In the 17th century it was regarded as one of the many states that made up Germany (then more a geographical region than a political one) it's where German Shepherd dogs (commonly known in the UK as Alsatians) came from. It was acquired for France by Louis XIV through some less than ethical (by today's standards) means. In 1870 it was annexed by Germany. In 1919 it became French again. In 1940 back to Germany but in 1945 French once more. An inhabitant of Alasace is technically an Alsatian (just as an inhabitant of a certain area that kept changing hamds between Ausrto Hungary, Italy, Yugoslavia and now Croatia is a Dalmatian). Of course one can understand why Texas would seem more stable, after all its only been Spanish then Mexican then independant then American
Interestingly I believe the last survivor of the German 1914 -18 army came from Alsace.
BTW My old French teacher when much younger and being fluent in French had been parachuted into France to support the Resistance, he was very soon picked up by the Germans because his French accent was Alsatian and stood out a mile (he spent a very unpleasant time as a guest of the Gestapo in la Frenais prison in Paris). All of his pupils at my school left speaking French with (unbeknown to us) an Alsace accent which is one reason why I can get along reading French but can never make myself understood in France! I always like to think that he was the original of the gendarme in the British sit com Allo Allo
well while texas was politicaly stable during the late 1800s to the turn of the century, in reality, crime was a major problem, it was after all during the wild west. but, a lot of germans came here because there was plenty of cheap land, same reason many irish came too, its a good place to start over, now in mexico there was a large german colony, which is why mexican beer is so good :p but yes, i acctualy have quite a bit of trouble understanding strong english accents, and even sentance structure, nevermind from british books from the turn of the century, HG wells is a perfect example of this, but i could still get through it relatively well. i had trouble reading all quiet on the western front because it was anglicanized, not americanized, so they had some english terms in it that were hard for me to understand, as well as the sentance structure, (i cant think of any examples, but i still managed to get through it). ive also heard people from spain and mexico have a very hard time understanding each other, namely because in mexico you had native influence on the culture, and language, changing it from spanish english.
Yes it isn't only America and Britain divided by a common language. Things also drift. An old working colleague of mine was Afrikans by origin and upbringing and on making her first visit to the ancestral homeland in the north Netherlands was mortified to find that no one could understand her 'Dutch' and then surprised to discover that Flemish speakers in Belgium understood her perfectly. Back on the WW1 subjects I understand that language was a major problem in the Austro Hungarian empire - so much so that an artificial language called "Official German" (that wasn't actually German proper) was created for state business. A KuK warship could have a mixture of crew members whose first languages might be Polish, Italian, Magyar, Czech, Slovene, Serbo Croat and several different varieties of German. There is a story , I don't know if true or not, of the crew of a KuK aircraft who were reduced to communicating in Latin! I sometimes think that the old Austro Hungarian Empire and today's EU have more in common than meets the eye (or ear).
interestingly, that was a major problem in russia, and in the old islamic empires, but in the case of the islamic empires all people were taught to read and speak arabic, so they could read the quran, but also spoke their own individual languages and wrote them using arabic, (sort of like how the veitnamese use western characters but write in their own language) in russia this was solved by integration, but many areas had their own very distinct dialects (i recall trotsky in his autobiography mentioning his fathers very thick ukranian accent) and when you think about it that was a major problem in a country that large. and the EU is very much a modern empire, but it seems most organizations like that are adopting english, which i find odd considering how hard it is for non english speakers to learn. oh and how many provences were integrated into both germany and the austrohungarian empire anyway? i know that in germany each previous kingdom had its own flag and band to put on the pickelhaube, so around how many areas were absorbed?
Well prior to German unification there were numerous German states that dated back to the HRE (holy roman empire) When the Holy Roman empire was finally dissolved in 1806 and replaced by the Confederation I believe they reduced the amount of states to 35, that part I am not sure about it, but still can u imagine 30 plus sovereign nations inside Germany? During the reformation years of the HRE, there were hundreds of states and principalities!
As for AUH, at first it was just Austria expanding but ever since the battle of Mohacs, they began to expand into the Balkans pushing the Ottomans, and the natives, which immediately created many problems for the AUH, this was partially solved during the Ausgleich in 1867 when the empire became a dual monarchy that kind of settled the differences between the Hungarians and the Austrians or at least reduced tension (that tension created a revolution in 1848), but it did nothing to solve the problems of the Balkan provinces, in fact that’s the reason WWI started :), interestingly Franz Ferdinand wanted to create a triple monarchy including Serbia, needless to say it would have created only more problems and that’s one of the reasons the Serbians were so determined to kill him.
not being German or Austrian I am sure I over simplified the history but its a brief little synopsis
eugene wrote: Well prior to German unification there were numerous German states that dated back to the HRE (holy roman empire) When the Holy Roman empire was finally dissolved in 1806 and replaced by the Confederation I believe they reduced the amount of states to 35, that part I am not sure about it, but still can u imagine 30 plus sovereign nations inside Germany? During the reformation years of the HRE, there were hundreds of states and principalities!
The legacy states still caused some problems as late as WW1 as they resented the leading position that Prussia had taken. For example the Barvarian elements of the army were semi detached in a number of ways, Munich insisted, for example, that Barvarian fighter units in the Fliegerkorps were equiped with Pflalz aircraft rather than those from Albatross or Fokker and Pfalz (based in Munich) never adopted the camoflage schemes mandated for everybody else.
You are quite right, Robert. This "individualism" on the part of Bavaria can be seen when examining the Autumn 1914 Battle of the Frontiers, and Rupprecht's unfortuante decisions that departed from the General Staff's plans for actions there.
Building on your comments regarding the single seat fighter. The Pfalz D3 was indeed considered inferior by Brit pilots to the point of calling them "meat on the table" when encountered. Yet they were bought simply to support a Bavarian industry. (Though admittedly the Pfalz XII that came along in late 1918 was an excellent performer.)
Building on your comments regarding the single seat fighter. The Pfalz D3 was indeed considered inferior by Brit pilots to the point of calling them "meat on the table" when encountered. Yet they were bought simply to support a Bavarian industry. (Though admittedly the Pfalz XII that came along in late 1918 was an excellent performer.)
Only when they were still serving after they should have been replaced and, like the Albatross DV, were proving inadequate against the Camel and the SE5a. In their heyday (when up against Pups etc) they were pretty potent, indeed some Windsock research suggests that in some respects they were better performers than the Albatross DIII.
von Josephu wrote: You forgot to mention Roumanian, Slovak, Yiddish, Friulic, Ruthenian (allright, Ukrainian) and Roma, and several dozen obscure dialects and languages that were slowly dying out during the 19th and early 20th century (like the two Dalmatian languages, one slavic, one roman) ;)
I have to admit that the question of Roma (AKA "Gypsy") service in the miltaries of WW1 had never occured to me before. Did the KuK in fact conscript them? As I understand, their itinerant lifestyle is a source of some controversy even in today's EU (with pressure to settle or assimilate in some cases, and concerns about children not receiving the best education available if they don't). I apologise if anyone is offended by my phrasing, and I openly admit to knowing very little about this people.
For citizens with permanent residences, notification of being called up for military service would normally be through the postal system, would it not? And units were filled on a regional basis? How would Roma servicemen be organised, if they regularly traveled around the state?
Well the Russian Imperial Army managed to incorporate nomadic peoples - the Cosacks for example. i suspect they weren't sent a nice brown envelope with On His Imperial Majesty's Service on the front and containing some thing like "Dear Citizen under Imperial edict no ... etc". Something more like a summonsing to the hetman of other leader telling him how many men were wanted. Also I suspect some recruitment still went along the old British methods of the 18th century
"Well lad you look like you could be a field marshal inside a year, have a drink of beer on the King and here's a shilling for you ---- right you orrible little man you're in the army now GET FELL IN!"
I don't have any specific facts, but there are a few k.u.k. anecdotes featuring gypsy soldiers (and, usually, the senile octogenarian Feldmarschall ;) ).
Illiteracy would not be much of a problem for a common soldier. In the more remote areas of, say, Siebenbuergen or the Bukovina, many people were more or less illiterate, despite mandatory elementary school. Beyond the Austrian, Bohemian and Hungarian heartlands, the A-H Empire was almost as backwards as Russia.
Well the Russian Imperial Army managed to incorporate nomadic peoples - the Cosacks for example. i suspect they weren't sent a nice brown envelope with On His Imperial Majesty's Service on the front and containing some thing like "Dear Citizen under Imperial edict no ... etc". Something more like a summonsing to the hetman of other leader telling him how many men were wanted. Also I suspect some recruitment still went along the old British methods of the 18th century
"Well lad you look like you could be a field marshal inside a year, have a drink of beer on the King and here's a shilling for you ---- right you orrible little man you're in the army now GET FELL IN!"
by the time of WWI being a Cossak was a military honor, and their units were often the best of the army, there was a sharp difference between the Don Cossaks and the Ukranian cossaks, the latter were subjugated with much greater force by Russia (17th-18th centuries) and lost a lot more of their freedom, not being able to openly live their way of life or have powerful hetmans. The Don Cossaks although sometimes mistrusted by the tsar were considered the back bone of the elite army and were some of the strongest supporters of the White army, although they always liked their autonomy
I don't think that Romani have a comparable, centralised societal structure to the Cossacks or the Muslim tribes who formed the 'Savage Divisions', frequently encountered claims of being the 'Queen of all the Gypsies' notwithstanding.
Or maybe they do, as I said, I'm not very familiar with them. Anyway, I suppose that conscription wouldn't really be all that difficult, and could be accomplished in an ad hoc "Hey you!" method, with whatever Roma were encountered anywhere.
I would be interested in hearing the the senile octogenarian Feldmarschall anecdotes, however!
You forgot to mention Roumanian, Slovak, Yiddish, Friulic, Ruthenian (allright, Ukrainian) and Roma, and several dozen obscure dialects and languages that were slowly dying out during the 19th and early 20th century (like the two Dalmatian languages, one slavic, one roman) ;)
I have to admit that the question of Roma (AKA "Gypsy") service in the miltaries of WW1 had never occured to me before. Did the KuK in fact conscript them? As I understand, their itinerant lifestyle is a source of some controversy even in today's EU (with pressure to settle or assimilate in some cases, and concerns about children not receiving the best education available if they don't). I apologise if anyone is offended by my phrasing, and I openly admit to knowing very little about this people.
For citizens with permanent residences, notification of being called up for military service would normally be through the postal system, would it not? And units were filled on a regional basis? How would Roma servicemen be organised, if they regularly traveled around the state?
indeed, i knew someone who used to live in romania, he dispised gypsies, but now that i think about it, i could swear i saw a picture somewhere mentioning them. either way if they were conscripted it wouldnt realy matter where their family drifted as at the time all the countrys they were in were either part of russia or the austrohungarian empire. so i dont think conscription would be as hard to do then as now with them, because now they may wander into near by states.
Well the Russian Imperial Army managed to incorporate nomadic peoples - the Cosacks for example. i suspect they weren't sent a nice brown envelope with On His Imperial Majesty's Service on the front and containing some thing like "Dear Citizen under Imperial edict no ... etc". Something more like a summonsing to the hetman of other leader telling him how many men were wanted. Also I suspect some recruitment still went along the old British methods of the 18th century
"Well lad you look like you could be a field marshal inside a year, have a drink of beer on the King and here's a shilling for you ---- right you orrible little man you're in the army now GET FELL IN!"
by the time of WWI being a Cossak was a military honor, and their units were often the best of the army, there was a sharp difference between the Don Cossaks and the Ukranian cossaks, the latter were subjugated with much greater force by Russia (17th-18th centuries) and lost a lot more of their freedom, not being able to openly live their way of life or have powerful hetmans. The Don Cossaks although sometimes mistrusted by the tsar were considered the back bone of the elite army and were some of the strongest supporters of the White army, although they always liked their autonomy yup, you can see this in the movie "dr.zchevago" (i know i misspelled that) where the cossacks are portrayed as on a higher rung from the working class, and act similarly to MP's
J Fullerton wrote: I don't think that Romani have a comparable, centralised societal structure to the Cossacks or the Muslim tribes who formed the 'Savage Divisions', frequently encountered claims of being the 'Queen of all the Gypsies' notwithstanding.
Or maybe they do, as I said, I'm not very familiar with them. Anyway, I suppose that conscription wouldn't really be all that difficult, and could be accomplished in an ad hoc "Hey you!" method, with whatever Roma were encountered anywhere.
I would be interested in hearing the the senile octogenarian Feldmarschall anecdotes, however!
well, as far as i know they are tribal, so do have some sort of centralization, id imagine similar to the native american tribes, and of course the muslim tribes, and mongolian tribes, which are all very similar, but tend to have leadership in the form of elder tribesmen, and i know plenty of mongolians served in WWII, so it follows that if they could conscript mongolian tribesmen in the middle of nowhere in southern siberia, then in WWI they could conscript roma, probably much like you say, it wouldnt surprise me if some voulunteered, they alas didnt play much of a role in WWII as they were being persecuted and killed by the nazi occupation governments.
