Landships II

Rob · Legend

Matador Models Cable Cart

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Rob I will be very interested to see the outcome! There was also a phone cale laying hand cart for field deploying of telephone wire for battery OP's. It got quite a bit of use at the start & end of the war! Do you know any one who makes one??

PS I am still looking for good pics / drawings in case I have to make one.

Rob · Legend

These are the only pics of both the horse drawn and hand propelled cable cart's I know of, which you might have already seen. I've got an interesting description of the horse-drawn Cable Cart by an RE officer who used them, after starting the war as a dispatch rider (one of many who, despite being civilians at the outbreak of war, acquired a motorcycle, automatically became Corporals and went across as dispach riders)

http://www.fairmile.fsbusiness.co.uk/signals.htm - about three quarters of the way down

-- Edited by Rob on Saturday 13th of February 2010 06:39:34 PM

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

Thanks for the link. Pity the posted photo is so dark. Maybe one of the list members will get a chance to go to Royal Signals Museum at Blandford Camp & photograp it? Thnough it does confirm what I had read about the cart. Found the rest of the site very interesting.

Was staggered by the bits about cable laying - the 1917 stuff 1500 yrds of BURIED cable in by +15hrs & over 3000 yrds by +31 hours. A rate of 100yrds per hour for cable buried at least 6 feet deep - sounds like men working like demented badgers!

Rectalgia · Legend

Here is a picture of a cable-laying cart in action at Gallipoli - British signallers at Sedd-el-Bahr.jpg - but is this a different cart? It looks like four horses are hitched to it. I don't know about Sedd-el-Bahr but elsewhere on the peninsular most positions were exposed to direct Turkish small-arms and artillery fire so I suppose high-speed dashes would be the order of the day - even so four-in-hand seems excessive. Perhaps a plow or other furrowing device was incorporated.

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

The picture in the link is of the cart in the model not the hand cart. The material will be very heavy as the horsed cart carried 4 smaller or 2 large cable drums in total holding� hundreds of�yards of copper wire cable in a fabric & resin coating. Even the smaller drums were a minimum 2 man lift just to get them onto the cart! The large drums required proper lifting gear! This is cable capable of carrying more than 1 "line" for field telephones. If I recall correctly each "line" required "1pair" of copper wires. Common trunk lines were 8 & 16 "pair".� I think 4 "pair" were for forward lines.

Single "pair" was only layed for short, temporary lines & right up at the teeth end. Such lines going directly to close point like company HQ, Mortar section pit etc. These were also used in open field for observers close to their batteries ( 100 to 200 yrds max). Single pair was mostly what the hand carts carried & layed. Though I do know the carts were also used forward on occasions for 4 "pair" lines.

The one set of numbers I have got is for 16 "pair" cable & it is Tons Per Mile!

Michael Taylor · Lieutenant-Colonel

It does appear that the horse in your kit is attempting a very high speed for cable laying!

Rob · Legend

I'm not quite sure of the purpose of the horse - it doesn't appear to be supposed to be with the cart as I was under the impression that at least two horses were used, and there's no mention of it in the instructions or ways to attach it to the cart

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Rob its looks to me rather like its meant to be towed in the same way as the one in the link Rectalgia posted.... interesting pic too...

Cheers smile

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Rob,

I've seen a picture of a British signals linesman, on a horse, by DEK models.
Horse and man look quite similar to the ones in the Matador kit.
Does that company still exist? Or may be Matador has taken over? Could be an explanation for the horse in this kit, as you already mentioned it doesn't really meant to be pulling the cart?

Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

I thought it looked a bit like a 6-horse team in the earlier picture but that seemed a little fantastic. Not so, this depiction shows 6, with a postillion to each pair - 'Signals in Action 1914-1918' by Ivor Hele

The background to the picture is at Royal Australian Corps of Signals - History, just a little short of half-way down the page. ... The advance in the initial stages was fairly rapid and the Australians found themselves in open country not scarred by old trenches or shell holes; so open that, when the advance was held up and it was decided to attack Bullecourt, it was possible to use cable wagons freely to lay cable from the headquarters of divisions to supporting artillery brigades.

One such occasion is recorded where a six-horse cable wagon not only laid cable in the open, but at a hand gallop. The diary of the detachment commander written at the time reads ...Incredible stuff.

Incidentally, Watson's Pier at Anzac Cove (Gallipoli) was built by Lt Stan Watson, a signals officer (Signals were incorporated into the Australian Engineers at the time) using a Turkish mortar shell casing (with a suitably inert filling) for a pile-driver weight. (See Watson's Pier (Watercolour) in Military Art by Ian Coate) That's another story - as is the celebration on its completion date of 18 June 1915 being the foundation of the annual "Waterloo Dinner" observed by the RAE ever since - but they were intrepid people, these signallers.

[edit - changed 'outrider' to 'postillion']

[edit - updated dead links]

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Saturday 17th of March 2012 06:56:08 PM

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Rectalgia,

Yes, I think the cart could have been a 6 horse too, according the garment on the picture of the model, these two gadgets left and right of the ladder. These are (excuse, I don't know the English word for them) for the 4 horses in front, the remaining two are harnassed to the beam of the cart. What I know is that usually there's one driver on the cart seated on the right(British system) and one on the left horse in front, called in horse land a postillon(the rider).
All left horses manned seems a bit overdoing to me. But that's just instinct. What's the function actually of the riders with the hooks, are they keeping the line away from the cart?
Quite a challenge I think, to build this kit, with the horse gear apparently not included!

Regards, Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

kieffer wrote:

Hi Rectalgia,

Yes, I think the cart could have been a 6 horse too, according the garment on the picture of the model, these two gadgets left and right of the ladder. These are (excuse, I don't know the English word for them) for the 4 horses in front, the remaining two are harnassed to the beam of the cart. What I know is that usually there's one driver on the cart seated on the right(British system) and one on the left horse in front, called in horse land a postillon(the rider).
All left horses manned seems a bit overdoing to me. But that's just instinct.

Hi keiffer.� I'm guessing, but maybe those are "traces" (I was just a little kid when, thanks to the end of the much drawn-out war rationing of petrol, my parents ceased using horse-drawn transport in favour of mechanical) smile

I'm just guessing about the function of the postillion too but I would imagine he normally keeps an eye on the traces of the pair in front and keeps his pair in station to avoid slacking and jerking the traces.� In open terrain it would make good sense to have a postillion on the front pair as well, to guide the whole assemblage.

What's the function actually of the riders with the hooks, are they keeping the line away from the cart?

Again, just guessing but I think they would normally guide the line(s) off the track (if any) to avoid damage by following traffic and/or to delay enemy discovery.� Maybe they normally laid the lines off into a prepared trench or furrow.� A parted conductor (possibly invisible to external inspection) would be a big problem - laying at the gallop would be risk enough.� The sheathing must have been very well designed.

Incidentally, the cable reel attendant would have some way to guide the cable off the unwinding reel and maybe that's what that handle is all about that can be seen in the painting (a first-stage travelling guide maybe, then a fixed one).� But I doubt if he would have his bare hand (right hand) anywhere near the cable at high speed. Ouch!� At least he is realistically shown as having his body off to the side of the reel.

Yes, I think this model will be a challenge and I hope the pictures help, particularly the painting.� Ivor Hele was an AWM (Australian War Memorial) artist and those guys were fanatical about accuracy (even though WW1 was not his fort�). They were almost as meticulous as modellers. biggrin Well, the painting was done for RA Sigs in 1972 and you can be sure every detail was carefully examined by WW1 veterans.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Rectalgia,
thanks for answering! The function of the postilion etc., also guessing and trying to remember from childhood in the country, I think you'r right.
There are a few different ways how horses were harnessed, sometimes they did or still do things on the continent a bit different, or even there are regional variations. At least there is an English way and a German one, but I don't know if the army had other methods...and we are talking here about an English cart anyhow.
It's fun to puzzle these things out!
I saw pictures (Boer war) too were all left horses were manned, though I have the feeling that this was done with unmanned carts or guns. Horses by the way, they did extensively use mules did'nt they?

regards, Kieffer

Brennan · Lieutenant-Colonel

The manning of all horses with postillions is mostly a military thing! The however is the Brits took it further than most! The issues a several fold

1. Multiple redundancy - military formations are expected to take casualties!
2. Ensuring highest mobility (particularly the Brits who had the money & the horse flesh).
3. Speed, postillions (even if primarily crew) enable vehicles to move faster over poorer ground than crew seated on vehicles.
4. Care of the horse flesh & equipment - looking after these takes Alot of time if it is well done! Fewer bodies = less care = many more dead horses, a common European Problem was horse wastage!

What is inefficent in civil terms is / was often done by the military to ensure effectiveness in adverse circumstances.

Rectalgia · Legend

A masterful analysis, thanks. On further reflection, I would add that the horses might require more control under fire (and the need to instantly cut the traces if one goes down). Yes, they learned to cope (magnificently), especially in a group, but still they remain vulnerable to instinct.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Brennan,

yep, and in addition to your analysis, much riding things come from the military, take for instance the famous French riding school, Saumur, still known and admired by civil riders.
Rectalgia: I agree with that, horses are prone to run away from situations. That's why they have my sympathy...
Even a simple plastic bag on their path can make them panic, not to mention the noise on a battlefield even when they were trained for that (firing blanks, a whole squad drawing sabres at the same moment).

Regards Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

kieffer wrote:
...
Rectalgia: I agree with that, horses are prone to run away from situations. That's why they have my sympathy...

Heh, and they're always finding some new thing to spook them. An incident involving our cart-horse and a circus elephant comes to mind - we could have done with a postillion that day ...

�

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

as mentioned before, some resemblance with this model, must be from the late 70's I think and the producer was DEK Models. Sorry for the quality, it's a picture over two pages in a booklet, the scanner did'nt digest that very well

regards Kieffer

Rob · Legend

The Matador figure looks just like the DEK figure - what scale is it?

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Rob,

the picture is from one of these books with nice pictures and superficial text, the scale isn't even mentioned. (Model Soldiers in colour, Octopus, 1981)