Landships II

James H · Legend

Osprey's "Belgian Army In WWI"

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi James,

the tent-section intrigues me: was it something you could wear as a poncho too, and button it to the other section having a complete shelter? And were there pegs and poles (in sections) too? Was it rolled over a blanket?
(I remember these from my service days, through the "ventilation" openings you could put your arms through, having a poncho).
I read (must look it up) somewhere that the Belgian army, short of everything when digging in at the Yser, tent sections were issued again after a while but only one for every 4 men or even more as far as I remember. "Tentzeil" is the Dutch/Flemish word for it, when small it's "zeiltje".
And how was the knapsack theme arranged for the cyclists anyway? I never saw a picture of a 'full' equipped cyclo soldier. They wore a short cape, remarkable peaked caps they had too!

regards, Kieffer

James H · Legend

Well, that's an interesting one. The enclosed pic is from one of Pierre Lierneux's articles (with his permission). The roll is described as a couverture, or blanket. A very similar pic (presumably of the same items) appears in Laurent Mirouze's World War I Infantry in Colour Photographs, where�the item�is described as a bedroll.�In the Osprey book and elswhere,�Pierre L�describes it as a tent section. Perhaps it was all three.�The trouble is that in the many photos of Infantry that we can date as post-1911, the roll isn't there.

Acc to PL, the idea was abandoned well before the War and the restraining straps used to carry shoes on the side of the pack and a folding leather bucket on top. Many photos of Line and other Infantry confirm that. But there is a photo of Line infantry during the retreat to Nieuport all wearing blankets wrapped round them. The answer seems to be that the item was folded into a square and carried under the flap of the knapsack. There are some photos in which it can be seen.

It has certainly caused some confusion. L&F Funcken show Belgian infantry with the roll in Les Uniformes de Tout les Temps but without it in the WWI book, and as PDA's post shows, some figure manufacturers include it and others don't.

Whether blanket or section was used as a poncho, I doubt. Other Ranks were required to wear the tunic and greatcoat at all times when on campaign, something about which the officers frequently complained. On the march (especially in�the late summer of 1914) it was unbearably hot, and when they got to the Yser it was found that the wollen greatcoat became saturated by rain and the generally humid conditions. I assume that, as with the French, Russians, etc, there was a way of joining the sections, but I don't know about tentpoles and so on at the moment.

Now, the cyclists.

The first Cyclist Battalion was formed by simply issuing bicycles to Carabiniers, who continued to wear the leather Corsican hat. Trying to keep that in place while cycling cannot have been easy. As part of the 1913 reforms, the hat was replaced by a version of the rather unflattering feltmuts, the undress cap worn by Carabiniers and Chasseurs�� Pied (Jagers te Voet). Adding a peak to it made it considerably more practical and stylish.

The Carabiniers Cyclistes seem to have carried their personal equipment�in a pack, either on the handlebars or suspended from the crossbar - possibly both. The cape also seems to have been rolled round the body sometimes.

There are photos of the Cyclists drilling with both Madsen and Short Hotchkiss mgs, but they seem to be trials. Whether they actually used them in combat isn't clear to me at the moment, but there are shots of a Madsen unit with various special attachments on the bikes to hold the ammunition, spare barrels and so on. The Funckens have clearly based their illustrations on these photos, but whether they're accurate I couldn't say for certain.

The case continues.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Kieffer the British army had something similar,�I remember these as a Cadet we used all old surplus stuff, uniforms etc ex WW2�mostly I think... the groundsheet/Poncho could be improvised into a one man tent with the use of the BA jackknife, a couple of sticks and a few improvised pegs... but this of course is later...

Cheers smile

Rectalgia · Legend

Ironsides wrote:

...I remember these as a Cadet we used all old surplus stuff, uniforms etc ex WW2�mostly I think... the groundsheet/Poncho could be improvised into a one man tent with the use of the BA jackknife, a couple of sticks and a few improvised pegs...

Still in use in the mid-sixties in the Australian army, for home use at least. {sigh} yes, I'm old and surplus too - thanks for the reminder

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi James,

thanks for your analysis!
Thinking the poncho-thing over, I think that's a bit too modern, and probably too luxurious for that period.
I forgot the greatcoat, indeed they wore that all the time, hot or cold. I guess they had to do with that, no extra rain clothing...
Some pictures of retreating Belgians show the blanket worn "Russian style" as a bandolier, but as they lost most of their equipment that must be a provisorium I guess. (And looking for pictures, indeed there are with uniformed and 'half' uniformed soldiers wearing for instance a civil cap..reminded me at the partisan theme). And I am drifting now: every man those days had to wear something on his head! Those intriguing pictures of POW's, all wearing their cap and if not, their steel helmet. Off course these were drilled soldiers, but civilians too, and I think that lasted till the late 50's, didn't go on the street without a hat or a cap.
I have the reference not here at the moment, but there is a picture of Rene Magritte, as a conscript. His knapsack has a roll, I guess a blanket, again. Picture is dated I think 1920, 25. It looks they brought back the old habit.� I'll post the pictures asap!

Hi Steve, Ironsides,

yes we are over the hill, having our best time behind us, dancing days are over...

Best regards all of you, Kieffer

jagjetta · Brigadier

Greetings,
Something to remember is that each man carried a shelter half in addition to his blanket. Attached are some photos of either shelter halves or blankets being carried (usually can tell the difference by the nap of the wool on the blanket showing or the smooth surface of the shelter half).

-- Edited by jagjetta on Thursday 29th of April 2010 06:38:35 PM

jagjetta · Brigadier

Some more blanket roll shots.

James H · Legend

Thanks for the pics, John. I know the first one, but the second is most interesting.

Pierre L has been quite insistent about this. He says the roll-round-the-pack was an experiment only, and he has explained that to me and pointed it out in the book (presumably when it was too late to alter the illustrations). As I said earlier, maybe the roll contained both blanket and tent section.

I've looked at a lot of photos that can be definitely dated after the outbreak, and there are one or two rolls visible but the overwhelming majority of troops haven't got it. None of the various Infantry shown in the 1913 collection of photos by Pr�aux Fr�res has it, and that was a very important set of photos - part of the King's attempt to get the Army taken seriously - so I think accuracy would have been very important. The Funckens show some with and some without.

The folding bucket that can be seen very clearly on this Chasseur was introduced in 1888, replacing the bidon de campement, a large canteen of maybe 10 litres. PL says that the blanket/tent was often carried under the flap of the pack (as in the second pic), and a brown, grey, or other drab colour substituted for the highly visible white regulation issue.

Your first pic is clearly posed, and the man might have chosen to display the roll to make himself look as martial as possible. The interesting thing is that the two other men are wearing the 'Yser' (1914) kepi and the 'Argentinian'� model ammunition pouches, issued from October onwards, by which time the Army was on the defensive behind the Yser river. The Funckens do show a couple of figures with this configuration.

Your last pic really throws a spanner in the works. That's the khaki 1915+ uniform, so if PL is right he shouldn't be wearing it. The official roll was different again, as in Pic 3.

So whilst I think we can say that the roll was not usually carried outside the pack, the official policy and the time of the 'experimental' period aren't absolutely clear. PL has been very helpful, but I don't want to pester him overmuch. I suppose that, from a modelling point of view, the answer is to include a smattering of figures with the roll but the majority without.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Jagjetta,

that's a beautiful photo you posted!
The man is wearing the trench dagger, an item that gives this "piot" a real warrior like appearance. But in reality that weapon seemed to be rarely used, as was the bayonet.
But this man is, if I am right, wearing the front stripes ( frontstrepen) on his upper arm?
I thought they were worn just above the cuff?
Can you tell me more about the striping on the cuff? And the tassel on the shoulder?
Those front stripes were an issue for those soldiers who came over the Dutch border. After the war, a bitter issue too. You had to have been in action for a certain amount of days ( I forgot the exact number) otherwise you did not get your stripe(s).
Pension after the war was related to your stripes, so those who went over the border too soon, and were held on Dutch soil for the rest of the war, could miss some payment.
And there was a certain feeling in Belgium about them, sometimes being considered as cowards or even deserters. The harsh thing was that all interned officers got their stripes but many privates did not. For the 'real' deserters, (as in every war there are), times were hard, certainly the first years as they could see court martial if coming home. Quite a few stayed in Holland, just at the other side of the border and continued life there. I think the Belgian government softened the rules much later, I heard even that until 1960 these men could not see their homeland.

The picture is the son of King Albert. He was thirteen years young when he was "enlisted" as a private of the 12e Linieregiment but of course did not go to the trenches, he was sent to the UK. His father, in my opinion was really one of the great leaders of that era, withstanding the pressure to send his men into useless attacks and very caring.

regards, Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi James,

I am just trying to stirr up the uniform item, and as I want to convert/scratch a figure of a Belgian infantry man, these are helpfull pictures you posted, thanks!
The picture: a well known one I presume, of a barricade, I tried to sharpen a detail where a rucksack is visible. it looks if there's a roll laying next to it. The scene itself has been photographed from at least three different angles, it could be a nice diorama for modellers actually.
The sack on the man with the canteen (is that the right word?), was that a regular issue?
The last picture: a Garde Civique barricade, I found the captain at the right an interesting character...Belgian beer, there's no life without it but you can have this effect after having them too often.

regards Kieffer

James H · Legend

Hi, Kieffer. If you mean the "breadbag" thing, yes, it was part of the official equipment. Below is Mollo & Turner's illustration of the 1914 pack (complete with bedroll . . . )

More errors are still cropping up in the Osprey book: the belt buckle was worn off-centre, not the ammunition pouch; the illustration of a Line infantryman is said to show the squad's mess-tin (marmite), whereas a few pages further there's a contemporary drawing in which it's correctly described as the marmite individuelle.

The Garde Civique officer is a splendid figure. Somewhere there is a postcard purporting to show the biggest man in the Belgian Army. I can't find it now, but I'll try to dig it up.

See also cdr's post on the subject of the GC: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=35467091

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi James,

thanks again for your reponse!
The man at the right seen from the back gives a nice view on how is jacket is tailored, and...is he the Guy Doing Things Always A Bit Differently, his belt buckle on the back?
The buckle off centre as you mentioned, that's interesting, did not know that.
I think it's visible on the proud man at the other picture. What could he having there half hidden in his coat, lunch? A map?
The tallest man in the Belgian army, I would like to see his picture! He surely had a competitor in his King Albert, who wasn't exactly a short man either.
Cdr's post: I read that already with great interest.

regards, Kieffer

cdr · Lieutenant

http://www.1914-1918.be/james_thiriar.php

These are some of my favourite Belgian uniform drawings. Thiriar was a war volunteer and served in the front lines So I think his drawings are very reliable

Carl

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Carl,

the drawings of james Thiriar are very nice! He was a Garde Civique himself wasn't he?

regards Kieffer

cdr · Lieutenant

Hello Kieffer

Thiriar started as Chasseur-Cycliste of the Brussels Garde Civique. In 1915 he joined the 2e Regiment d'artillerie and in 1917 he transferred to the 1e Lanciers. So I think he had enough first hand information to be very accurate.

Carl

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Carl,

thank you for your information! The Gardes had cyclists too? I read somewhere that they had even artillery, be it from older types, is that correct?
Did Thiriar belong to the Section Artistique de l'Armee?
I can imagine he had enough first hand information to make his work accurate. I wish I had an original!

regards, Kieffer

James H · Legend

James Thiriar's illustrations of Belgian uniforms are very accurate and helpful. More of his work can be found on greatwardifferent.com (but you'll have to get to them via Google).

There are also some excellent illustrations by Louis Geens, M. Wagemans, and J. Demart, Belgian artists about whom I've not been able to discover much.

Rectalgia · Legend

James H wrote:
James Thiriar's illustrations of Belgian uniforms are very accurate and helpful. More of his work can be found on greatwardifferent.com (but you'll have to get to them via Google). ...

What? James can you not get to them through the secondary index at http://www.greatwardifferent.com/Great_War/Copy_index.htm? Or the index I "re-created". Both are working fine for me. They should do for you as well.

James H · Legend

That link does, indeed, work. Thank you. I am quietly confident that it's entirely my incompetence that is to blame.

cdr · Lieutenant

Maurice Wagemans
1914 volunteer Brussels garde civique (artillery)
1915 artillery training
1916 6th regiment d'artillery + section artistique
1917 12th regiment d'artillery
1918 detached to canadian army

I'll see what I can find about the others

Carl

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hallo Carl,
thank you, we are looking forward to it!
For uniforms: I understood that the Osprey book is not that accurate (still I am after it).
For me, information on uniforms of the Belgian army I have, is all by pieces or single pictures from different books and the internet. Is, or are there any books that are to recommand, and which are still available?

regards, Kieffer

James H · Legend

I shall really, honestly, definitely have an article ready when Landships II is launched. Completely by accident, prompted by a suggestion from Peter Kempf, I have become something of an expert on this. It is the last thing I ever expected.

You're quite right, Kieffer, there is a lot of info available, but it needs a lot of study to sort it out. When I get the article done I might see if I can get a publisher interested. I have in mind something rather better than the Osprey.

I bet David Bailey can hardly wait.

-- Edited by James H on Thursday 13th of May 2010 07:57:18 PM

James H · Legend

Found it. "The Biggest Man in the Belgian Army".

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi James,

that's great! May be I found a picture of the (or at least one of) smallest men in the French army, I will post that later on...here we go again..

regards, Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Comparing the man on the right with the rifle, and doing some scaling:
The 1886 rifle is 130,7cm in real life, the man's head 18cm, makes the man 1,40, I guess..
He is not sitting, if so that would make a giant out of him compared to his comrade.

Other interesting items I think are the waders, the jerkins and something that the standing man has on his helmet. Which he has on top of a woollen cap.
I don't know if the French army had different containers, as they had the pinard and soupe on the menu, so what these are drinking? Or coffee?
Many pictures (and model figures) show 'l'hommes du soupe", unspectacular carrying canteens or containers but these were among the bravest, many records about their daily dangerous runs out of the trenches, getting some feeding for their units.
Painting is by Georges Scott, I think one of the most talented war artists.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

This picture I found in a booklet, a volume of Soldiers Fotofax, publ. Arms and Armour Press. The caption says: German prisoner measuring 4ft 9in, interrogated.
The original caption names the man "puny Hun". But to illustrate that even 'puny Huns" were tough guys (otherwise it would have been a piece of cake to capture them), the Illustrated war News wrote how fit and strong this man was.

regards Kieffer

Rectalgia · Legend

Then there was Henri Tovell of the AIF. But that's cheating, he was just a little boy. Keep the tissues handy - http://www.fovanthistory.org/boy.html.

Actually there was a very short digger (ended up a WO if I recall) but blessed if I can find a trace of that story now. Thought I might have posted it somewhere before this but evidently not.

Ironsides · Legend

Hi Rectalgia, I think that would be "Just Soldiers Stories" Frank Wittman....
there are many other good�accounts there as well...

http://www.anzacday.org.au/justsoldiers/justsoldiers.html

Cheers smile

Rectalgia · Legend

Ironsides wrote:
Hi Rectalgia, I think that would be "Just Soldiers Stories" Frank Wittman....
there are many other good�accounts there as well...

http://www.anzacday.org.au/justsoldiers/justsoldiers.html

Ah, thanks, indeed it was Frank Wittman "3 foot 8 inches tall (1.12
metres)" and he served in both wars. What an incredible man.

[edit] Oh Lord, it wasn't even a month ago that you first gave me that link Ivor, I think I need a holiday!

-- Edited by Rectalgia on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 05:27:57 PM

jagjetta · Brigadier

kieffer wrote:

I don't know if the French army had different containers, as they had the pinard and soupe on the menu, so what these are drinking? Or coffee?

Kieffer, This fellow is carrying a canvas collapsible bucket.� The style of handle and the wrinkle in the fabric near the base are the best indicators of this.� Here is a picture of a French issue bucket:

FWIW,
JAG

�

kieffer · Commander in Chief

John, that's a great picture! I presume they treated the canvas, with caoutchouc?
The pinard: I read somewhere that was issued on daily basis, and not that bad but if possible, poilus bought their wine in nearby village shops or cafe's.
That typical canteen(bidon) the man on the painting is carrying, I think that model was still in service in 1939/40. The cavalry had a different type, Model 1884 if I am right.
regards, Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

may be already known to you: http://www.lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net.
It is a French site with a section dedicated to the Belgian army. That consists of only three pages, so it is worth studying it even if you do not speak French, nice photo's too

Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi all,

searching a bit on http://www.lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net, I read that Belgian Adrians were produced by Jouets de Paris (amongst others).
Jouets de Paris was a famous toy manufacturer, also known as JEP. They made a huge range of metal toys, and as more toy factories were involved in war production, the Adrain story does not surprise me. They stayed with the war theme apparantly, producing this clockwork Ft 17, which can shoot, has two sparkling MG's and a battery light. Alas the tracks are missing.

regards Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

James H wrote:

...have misunderstood the difference between Marengo Grey and Belgian Grey...

Worth it for the historical aspect, but the uniform details are a big let-down.
Hi James, I can only agree with your review! I finally bought my copy as every information on the Belgian Army is welcome, but this booklet has definitely some flaws. The art work..from an artistic point of view, well sorry for the illustrator but I have seen better, and even the information isn't correct.
But, what exactly is Marengo grey? (is that named after Napoleons horse?). And what is Belgian grey, is that bluish grey? And the piping, is that a yellow stripe on green? A French painting instruction (the JMD figurine) says 'passepoils gros vert', the trousers 'gris bleute fonce'. I purchased that figurine too, I will post some pictures of the paint work in progress. I am looking forward to your article on the new Landship site!
regards Kieffer

�

James H · Legend

"Belgian Grey" was officially a mid-grey (see the picture), but in practice it could be so dark as to appear charcoal or black.�Gris bleut� fonc� (dark�grey-blue) was the trouser colour of the infantry and, from 1911 onwards, of the Grenadiers, at least officially. Sources such as The Handbook of the Belgian Army and L&F Funcken say that Carabiniers and Chasseurs�� Pied wore blue-grey trousers, but the Belgian Army Museum says those regiments definitely wore Belgian Grey. The second pic is of Chasseurs�� Pied reenactors. As you can�see, the Dress Uniform was Vert Chasseur (Hunting Green), which perhaps led to the incorrect description of their greatcoats as green.

In the reforms of 1911 the piping on the infantry trousers was changed from red to dark blue, and that of the Carabiniers and Chasseurs�� Pied from yellow (jonquil) to dark green, but only when existing issue needed replacing, so in 1914 many men still had the old piping or none at all.

We've discussed Gris Marengo several times, and its origins are an enigma. It's described as "dark green" or "dark grey with a greenish tinge", but it seems to have been virtually black, the green being detectable only at very close quarters. See pic 3.

Apparently, when the Napoleonic-era uniforms were replaced in the 1850s all infantry greatcoats were Gris Marengo, but the Line and Grenadiers somehow became dark blue. How exactly that happened isn't clear to me.

I wondered about the origin of the name, but haven't been able to come up with anything definite. Marengo was, as you say, the�name of Napoleon's horse, but it was a grey - which in horse terminology means white. Was the colour invented in Marengo in Italy? What makes it more confusing is that that part of Italy was annexed by France in 1802 after the Battle of Marengo (Marengh in Piedmontese).

This is the really weird part: the only�dictionary in which I've found the expression isn't French or Italian - it's Spanish, meaning simply "dark grey".�http://www.eudict.com/?lang=spaeng&word=gris%20marengo At one time a�model shop somewhere in South America listed Gris Marengo amongst its stock of Revell paints, but now it has changed to Anthracite. If you want to be even more confused, google Gris Marengo and go to Images - you'll be amazed at the number of different shades.

That's all I can offer, but if you want to paint Belgian Carabiniers or Chasseurs�� Pied I suggest you just do the greatcoats�black.

-- Edited by James H on Monday 21st of June 2010 09:07:34 PM

Rectalgia · Legend

I think Marengo the horse was named for the battle so the matter of its colour probably doesn't mean much.

Blue or green could come into it through what may be a misapprehension that the Italian boy's name Marengo has something to do with "of the sea" - mare/marino with maybe some sort of conjunction with ingo/yng (which can be interpreted as man or son, I suppose, but that's Teuton/Germanic or certainly something other than Latin/Romance). A right muddle by any interpretation but the etymology of names sometimes seems that way and there are doubtless excellent reasons for that including long periods of being passed down through non-literate societies, perhaps even pre-dating the languages to which we now try to fit them (more mnemonics than meanings), a sort of process Chinese whispers then trying to unscramble things at the end.

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi James,

thank you very very much for your information, this is really helpful!
I did'nt know the Marengo grey already has been discussed before, I only vaguely remember the discussion about the origins of cloth names.
You're right, the horse was 'grey' which is in horse terminology white. In German/Dutch it's called 'Schimmel', in many shades from almost pure white, a mixture with grey dots (Apfelschimmel) to grey. But after reading your and Steve's analysis I don't think the horses colour has anything to do with the name too.
Colour definition is a tricky matter: especially when it's about fabrics. Even preserved dyed cloth can be misleading, take only the US Civil War uniforms of the Union, their blue turned into khaki by now. Today we have the RAL standardization which gives us at least some hold..
Regards, Kieffer

kieffer · Commander in Chief

Hi Steve,

thank you!
You're right, etymological explanations, how interesting they may be, are often hard to prove.
Another popular one: 'Pompernickel', the (original West Phalian) rye bread. Given to Napoleon by a humble baker, and after having a bite given back, saying that the food was 'bon pour Nickel', another napoleontic horse..which might be true ( though another explanation just names an ordinary French tourist, dated later). There are quite a few German words coming from the French occupation, some of them very nice. 'Muckefuck', comes from 'mocca a feu', 'aus der lameng' which is Berliner for 'a la main'.
French was the international language anyhow those days, but one etymological rule at least is going back to the first time new words appear in printing, so sometimes things can be made hard.
Apart from that, defining colours is often a matter of controversy too. It starts with the scientific theory, even old Goethe (was there anything the man did not have an opinion about?) revealed his own ideas, not completely correct but still not totally rejected today. Then there's the psychological, and physiological aspect: 'warm red', agressive yellow..eye deficiency (glaucoma!) or colour blindness.
Back to uniforms: the French experimented with some kind of camouflage before ww1. With uniforms in reseda green, named after a flower. It was abandoned anyhow for some reason. May be the looks were not warrior-like enough. These things still happen today. The 'chocolate chip' US fatigues were not that popular, too much 'pyama' and are replaced now by a more agressive pattern. The Dutch and Danish forces again didn't take the very effective German pea pattern, too much reminiscing the SS uniforms: psychology again..

regards, Kieffer

James H · Legend

France trialled a few drab uniforms pre War. Some details here:

http://landships.activeboard.com/forum.spark?forumID=63528&p=3&topicID=14154961