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Post Info TOPIC: Osprey's "Belgian Army In WWI"
cdr


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RE: Osprey's "Belgian Army In WWI"
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When the Belgian army changed its uniforms (which they more or less still wore in 1914) in the 1860's Napoleon was very much "en vogue" with parts of the Belgian military. You not only had marengo grey trousers, the cavalry wore Lasalle trousers

Carl

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kieffer wrote:

Hi Steve,

thank you!
You're right, etymological explanations, how interesting they may be, are often hard to prove.
...



Talking of which, I see the French 'redingote' (does that really come from the English "riding coat"?) in:

Or donc, l'uniforme que nous voyons ici, est celui déterminé dans une sorte de règlement "fait à Bruxelles, au grand état-major" de la garde civique, le 28 juin 1831, par ordre du général en chef le baron Em. d'Hooghvorst, imprimé et largement diffusé pour mettre fin à l'extraordinaire fantaisie qui régnait dans l'accoutrement des soldats citoyens.


Ce règlement décrivait notamment ainsi, la "Petite tenue pour les officiers de la garde civique", mobilisé ou non, et c'est celle qui nous intéresse ici:

"Il est loisible à MM. les officiers de la garde civique de porter, mais seulement hors de service, une petite tenue ainsi qu'il suit: redingote de drap bleu-flose, croisée sur la poitrine, sept boutons de chaque côté; passepoil rouge au collet et aux parementsl; boutons jaunes portant la légende "Garde civique de Belgique", ayant  au centre un lion. Cordon de grade noir, les glands désignant la marque distinctive du grade en or. Shako du modèle 1 (Shako couvert de toile cirée noire, ornée d'une plaque portant le n° de la légion, pompon dont la couleur était à fixer par les chefs de légion); les généraux seuls portent le chapeau à bord troussé. Pantalon gris marengo, garni de deux bandes et d'un passepoil de drap rouge".


Which comes from http://www.pitseys.com/petitetenue.doc (MS Word) - but unfortunately there's no picture of the "Pantalon gris marengo".  But there is of the redingote de drap bleu-flose.  Since Ms. Pitseys-Brassine apparently owns the right to that picture of P.J. De Droogers "sergent de grenadiers" I must not reproduce it here though the file format (.doc) may unfortunately prevent some from viewing it.

Anyway, gris marengo was used in Belgian uniforms as early as 1831.



-- Edited by Rectalgia on Wednesday 23rd of June 2010 07:53:00 AM

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Facimus et Frangimus


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Hi Carl!

the Osprey booklet says that the piping on the carabiniers trousers was yellow (if any, most trousers weren't piped at all). But the leaflet of the JMD figure says (French) 'passepoil vert' and that's green. I am confused...or in Flemish: ''k vin da wel straf van die gasten, ze speulen toch nie met mijne voeten zeker?"

regards, Kieffer

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"In the reforms of 1911 the piping on the infantry trousers was changed from red to dark blue, and that of the Carabiniers and Chasseurs à Pied from yellow (jonquil) to dark green, but only when existing issue needed replacing, so in 1914 many men still had the old piping or none at all."


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Rectalgia wrote:

 



Talking of which, I see the French 'redingote' (does that really come from the English "riding coat"?)

Hi Steve, thanks again!

The French, and the Germans have that nice habit of incorporating foreign words into their own lingo, at least they pronounce them in their own way. So it would not surprise me that redingote comes from the English riding coat. In Dutch you don't see that very often, though they sometimes come up with English words an Englishman would never use: 'band recorder' for tape recorder, 'stretcher' for camping bed to name a few. You probably might have noticed the habit in my writing too...and when it's coming to the point of defining national identity by language things can become touchy..

regards, Kieffer



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Hi James,

sorry! You already wrote it before, it slipped my memory! Thanks for reminding!

regards, Kieffer

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kieffer wrote:

...In Dutch you don't see that very often, though they sometimes come up with English words an Englishman would never use: 'band recorder' for tape recorder, 'stretcher' for camping bed to name a few. ...
"Stretcher" or "stretcher-bed" as a camping bed is familiar to me and I dare say most. Because of its resemblance to the collapsible ambulance/rescue stretcher. Well, even in Australian English there are "dialects" though the regional words/usage will generally be understood all over. Bathers, swimmers, cozzie being one example all meaning bathing/swimming costume in the elder lingo. Budgie-smugglers is a special variant (you really don't want to know ...).


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..stretcher isn't a good example I guess...read it in a Dutch article full of self critism, even masochistic on funny Dutch lingual behaviour..you can't trust no one these days.
The budgie smuggler...tell me more! Is that the tanga aka erm..no I am not gonna say it either how the thing is called here, something with shoelace and a certain part of the anatomy...are we of topic? Shoelaces? No sir, years ago once again the forces here had a scandal, recruits forced to march with the boots tied together, shuffling. May be not ww1 but military it is!

regards Kieffer

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Tanga? Not necessarily that brief, just snug, and worn by males (indisputably).

Boot-laces - Aussies always used leather ones. It is rumoured that when medical supplies at the Regimental Aid Post ran low, the medics would sometimes prescribe boot-laces. For the inconvenience of diarrhoea, chew off one inch each morning before eating or drinking, masticate thoroughly and swallow, repeat before retiring at night. Three weeks after receiving this prescription the suffering soldier comes back.

"You don't look so good," says the RAP Sergeant, "how did it go?"
"Well," says the man, with baleful glare, "the thong is gone but the malady lingers on!"

There, we are back on topic now for sure.

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Take your pick of definitions of "budgie smugglers" at www.urbandictionary.com.
However, a picture is worth at least a couple of words - the guy wearing the afore-mentioned swimwear is the Leader of the Opposition in the Federal Parliament (but that's another story).

regards,

Charlie



-- Edited by CharlieC on Thursday 24th of June 2010 06:26:15 AM

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Commander in Chief

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aha, that's a budgie smuggler: in the late 50's it was very hip for the angry young man to put a hair comb half visible (no dirty talk, serious) at the back, always at hand because the hair cut needed a lot of attention when showing of to the bathing beauties. It was the 'brillantine' era, or Brylcreme pommade. Almost every male put the grease on his head.
My dad's car always had a greasy circle on the 'ceiling' because he was a tall fellow, his head touched the vinyl lining..car..little Fords like the Anglia he needed for his work.
Budgie: wasn't that a brand too, toys like Dinky? (a known brand was Spot-on, Australian that was if I am right).
My soldiers bathing trunk was a real budgie: it almost ended under the arm pit and it looked pathetic, not even clown like anymore but very very sad.

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James H wrote:

France trialled a few drab uniforms pre War.

Hi James,

thanks for the tip, I didn't see that topic before.

More confusion anyway...Keegan's The First World War mentions: Reseda was named after the designer...the green was called 'mignonette'. The helmet according to Keegan was leather, other say 'liege', which is cork. Probably the cork was covered with a kind glace leather. The regiment experimenting with the outfit was the 28th. I vaguely remember or associate reseda with a certain Paul Reseda but I might mingle up once again, may be Paul Veronese who's name is given to another green...I do apologise again when I am telling things here that are written before, sometimes it is too much to read it all!



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Reseda and mignonette are the same thing - a plant. The trial uniform was supposed to be the same shade of green. Some pics here: http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=63528&p=3&topicID=14154961

I worry a little about Keegan's book. It is a monumental and all-encompassing work, and I suspect none of us could match its overall scope. However, when it comes to one or two particular areas in which we have some expertise it contains some major flaws. As I've mentioned before, his references to Tanks are full of mistakes, the worst being the claim that the Renault made its debut in April 1917. He also states that the Belgian Garde Civique outnumbered the regular army, which is equally untrue. These errrors are still in current reprints of the book, 12 years after the original publication.

So if we can find errors in matters that we know about, how many are there in areas that we don't? I much prefer Martin Gilbert's version.

 

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Hi James..
Oh..., both are plants. And I was wrong with Veronese too, he never gave a name to a green colour, again I mixed things the wrong way..viridian green was what I meant.
Keegan: there are more flaws...forgetting to mention the vast number of Belgian refugees to Holland, a historical event with a huge impact in the Netherlands and affecting their relationship with Belgium in more than one way. The Kaiser: he was not prevented from extradition by the Dutch queen, at least such thing is never proven though the discussion is still lingering on between pro and anti 'Oranjes'.

regards Kieffer



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cdr


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Hello Kieffer

This is Belgium ! confusion is obligatory

Royal Decree of 19/09/1911 piping for carabineers " gros vert" on ............. gris fer/gris Belge trousers

Carl

Don't start me on the Garde Civique ! I once published an (700 pages long) inventory on it for the period 1830-1870

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Hi Carl

Belgium:twaalf punten, douze points!
No I don't dare to ask you for your Garde inventory though...
By the way, do you remember the Zeebrugge museum? I heard that the collection went to Brussel. What ever happened with that beautiful huge table, with almost a regiment of 54?mm Belgian troops parading on it, the field artillery at the end.(one seated gunner had fallen of the limber wagon, the table was closed with glass so probably no one tried to re-install the poor artillerist..and it was the first thing me and my brother looked after again and again...)

regards Kieffer

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